Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
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25-05-2014, 03:57 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 03:00 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 02:55 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Geez dog, you gonna let the murderers and rapists just run around to do more...there are two choices, you lock them up to keep others safe or you let them run around and do as they damn please.

Could shoot 'em Drinking Beverage I did mention that I don't have an alternative. I do think if you're gonna lock them up you can still treat them as human beings. Which forcing them to sing the national anthem etc is very definitely not.

Singing the National Anthem isn't exactly pulling out their fingernails.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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25-05-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 03:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Singing the National Anthem isn't exactly pulling out their fingernails.

It's not exactly going to give them good associations with the American flag and anthem though or encourage them to be patriotic if they are forced to do it in prison. If anything it's going to make them less patriotic.
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25-05-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
I support Sheriff Joe...obviously others don't so this is all I will say.

Destruction of property of any sort at the prison is going to result in punishment of some kind. The singing isn't going to make them more patriotic, yeah, I get that. What I am saying is making them sing is not torture. Hell, they could have have had to sing 'The Song That Never Ends' or 'The Hokey Pokey'. The song choice sort of fit the infraction.

If they hadn't broken the law that sent them to the jail and then destroyed property while there I don't think they would not have been forced to sing The National Anthem.

I shed not one tear for their plight.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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25-05-2014, 04:47 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 04:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I support Sheriff Joe...obviously others don't so this is all I will say.

Destruction of property of any sort at the prison is going to result in punishment of some kind. The singing isn't going to make them more patriotic, yeah, I get that. What I am saying is making them sing is not torture. Hell, they could have have had to sing 'The Song That Never Ends' or 'The Hokey Pokey'. The song choice sort of fit the infraction.

If they hadn't broken the law that sent them to the jail and then destroyed property while there I don't think they would not have been forced to sing The National Anthem.

I shed not one tear for their plight.

Utilitarianism is at the heart of this. If it worked then there could be a discussion but demonstrably it does not. Rehabilitation is better for society as a whole and that trumps petty revenge.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-05-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 04:38 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I support Sheriff Joe...obviously others don't so this is all I will say.

Destruction of property of any sort at the prison is going to result in punishment of some kind. The singing isn't going to make them more patriotic, yeah, I get that. What I am saying is making them sing is not torture. Hell, they could have have had to sing 'The Song That Never Ends' or 'The Hokey Pokey'. The song choice sort of fit the infraction.

If they hadn't broken the law that sent them to the jail and then destroyed property while there I don't think they would not have been forced to sing The National Anthem.

I shed not one tear for their plight.

And this is why the American legal system doesn't work.
Crime is a complex matter. It's far more than "oh you shouldn't have committed that crime, it's your own fault".
There are 3-ish main influences that effect crime. Poverty, mental illness, family/friends.
If you had an equal-ish society, a society where people are cared for than there is no need for gangs or to steal etc.. and so people don't commit crime.
If you have a society that is good with mental illness you can stop possible crimes before they happen. If you live in a society that recognizes family violence, you can solve that issue and stop crime that that causes.

It's all about solving the route cause. If a crime is committed than it means prior steps to preventing that crime failed (solving one of the three above issues).

When a crime is committed, I do believe punishment should be a factor, you should pay for your crimes. BUT the punishment (detainment) should have a focus on rehabilitation. ie: Education, skills, psychiatric help etc.. So that when that person is done serving their time, they are far better off to fit into society and not commit further crime.

Yes, some people just shouldn't be in society, but these people (often mentally ill) are few and so aren't the burden on prisons. The burden on prisons is common crime, crime that can be prevented by solving larger social issues.
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25-05-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 03:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 02:55 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Geez dog, you gonna let the murderers and rapists just run around to do more...there are two choices, you lock them up to keep others safe or you let them run around and do as they damn please.

Or we could try something that works, treating them like human beings and focusing on rehabilitation instead of punishment. The scandinavian countries are closing prisons due to lack of offenders. We are doing it wrong.

I don't think its because of they way they treat prisoners.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it's because they have a healthier society.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-05-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 03:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Or we could try something that works, treating them like human beings and focusing on rehabilitation instead of punishment. The scandinavian countries are closing prisons due to lack of offenders. We are doing it wrong.

I don't think its because of they way they treat prisoners.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it's because they have a healthier society.

Well overall they tend to do things in a better way, but rehabilitation does work far better than punitive measures at reducing recidivism. It is less burden on the public and is better for those who do fall on the bad side of the law. Fixing the root problem would be way more than just how prisons are set up but it is a step.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-05-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 08:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think its because of they way they treat prisoners.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it's because they have a healthier society.

Well overall they tend to do things in a better way, but rehabilitation does work far better than punitive measures at reducing recidivism. It is less burden on the public and is better for those who do fall on the bad side of the law. Fixing the root problem would be way more than just how prisons are set up but it is a step.

Now that I think about it why doesn't the U.S give this a try?

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25-05-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 08:08 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 08:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well overall they tend to do things in a better way, but rehabilitation does work far better than punitive measures at reducing recidivism. It is less burden on the public and is better for those who do fall on the bad side of the law. Fixing the root problem would be way more than just how prisons are set up but it is a step.

Now that I think about it why doesn't the U.S give this a try?

Knee-jerk reactionaries that want to see criminals "pay for their crimes" rather than take the harder step of admitting it is a systematic problem with the way our society is set up. The monkey brain likes vengeance, it feels good to hurt them back, but it does nothing to solve the real problem.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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26-05-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: Arizona Inmates on Bread & Water for defacing flag
(25-05-2014 08:12 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-05-2014 08:08 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Now that I think about it why doesn't the U.S give this a try?

Knee-jerk reactionaries that want to see criminals "pay for their crimes" rather than take the harder step of admitting it is a systematic problem with the way our society is set up. The monkey brain likes vengeance, it feels good to hurt them back, but it does nothing to solve the real problem.

Should have known. Out of all countries I have learned about the U.S has the biggest ego of them all.

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