Arminianisn and Calvinism.
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09-01-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
So, what am I supposed to be doing?

Am I supposed to be arguing Calvinism and showing biblical support for it?

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09-01-2012, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2012 02:51 PM by Sharks9.)
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(09-01-2012 09:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  No idea what the question is but I think you and Sharks9 should have a gladiator fight Smile

I saw those pictures of KC's weapons, not a chance.

All I have is Frodo's sword Sting and some daggers, I'd get wrecked.


But on topic, my church just did a series on Arminianism and Calvinism which was pretty interesting and I learned a lot from it so I don't think I'd lose too badly.

James 1:27
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

"Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist." C.S. Lewis
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09-01-2012, 04:35 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2012 07:09 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(09-01-2012 01:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, what am I supposed to be doing?

Am I supposed to be arguing Calvinism and showing biblical support for it?

K.C if as you claim all systems are the same why does your exclusive Calvinist position save you? How is your blessed assurance justified? These are questions.
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10-01-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
I find Calvinism really silly but probably because I also find destiny and fate silly.



Silly me. I guess no matter which way you think, all of Christianity is pretty silly.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-01-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(09-01-2012 04:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 01:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, what am I supposed to be doing?

Am I supposed to be arguing Calvinism and showing biblical support for it?

K.C if as you claim all systems are the same why does your exclusive Calvinist position save you? How is your blessed assurance justified? These are questions.

It's a simple matter of "why" not "how". If Arminians believe in Christ and accept His will for their life, their salvation isn't affected - as they are either saved or not. Just because they think that they affect their salvation doesn't make them non-elect.

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10-01-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(10-01-2012 12:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 04:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 01:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, what am I supposed to be doing?

Am I supposed to be arguing Calvinism and showing biblical support for it?

K.C if as you claim all systems are the same why does your exclusive Calvinist position save you? How is your blessed assurance justified? These are questions.

It's a simple matter of "why" not "how". If Arminians believe in Christ and accept His will for their life, their salvation isn't affected - as they are either saved or not. Just because they think that they affect their salvation doesn't make them non-elect.

I suggest you go back a few hundred or so threads of your O.P.
Was it all in vain perhaps? Sleepy
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10-01-2012, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 10:37 PM by Organon.)
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(09-01-2012 01:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, what am I supposed to be doing?

Am I supposed to be arguing Calvinism and showing biblical support for it?

On an atheist site? Don't u feel privileged that you're allowed to do that? Tongue

On the CARM site, atheists aren't allowed anywhere near the Christians!
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23-01-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
So, my friend was asking about election, and this is what I wrote for her:

Establishing “God”

What “God” is
1) God is all powerful (omnipotent).
2) God is all knowing (omniscient).
3) God is everywhere, was always here, and will always be here (omnipresent).
4) God is sovereign over humanity.
5) God’s morality is His own (He cannot be judged).
6) God is unchanging (nothing affects His decisions).

Application

1) If God is all powerful, then He has the power to do as He chooses according to His plan. If God is all powerful, He cannot create a paradox that defies His omnipotence (aka God creating a knot He can’t untie). 2 Timothy 2:13 says, “He cannot deny Himself.” That being said, God cannot create a caveat that defies His omnipotence. If God created freewill, then He denies Himself because He is limiting His power to the whim of those whom He is supposed to be sovereign over. The very nature of freewill denies God.
2) If God is all knowing, then He knows those whom He has chosen from the beginning of time (Eph 1:4-5). Yes, it is true that God knows middle knowledge (the knowledge of what we would do and how things would pan out differently if we did or didn’t); however, His omnipotence prevents Him from making a decision based on middle knowledge because it would still be a decision based on the whim of a human; regardless if it was in another “dimension”. Besides, the Bible says that judgment is for sins committed; not “could have been committed”, so it’s clear that God does not hold sins (or good deeds) done in middle knowledge against you (Rev 20:12).
3) If God was always here, then His plan was planned (via His omnipotence and omniscience) from the beginning of infinity (sic). Since we know that God chose people from the beginning, only certain people are assured of salvation and that can never, ever change; no matter what. Nothing will affect it.
4) God is sovereign over all humanity which means we are subjugated to His predestined plan.
5) God’s morality is His own. There are many instances in the Bible where God is morally abhorrent; however, this is from a human vantage point. God’s morals serve His plan and purpose and they go without contestation. God has a reason for His moral activity that, for the most part, we don’t understand. These morally ambiguous acts serve His will, though, for His ultimate plan. For instance, superficially, a vaccine can be seen as immoral – as you are giving a healthy person a disease. But, we all know what the purpose of a vaccine is, and what the end result from the plan is.
6) If God is unchanging (Heb 13:8), then nothing can affect His decisions and His plan that was laid out. The very thought that we can accept Him (in the active sense) changes God and defies His unchanging nature. True freewill cannot coexist with the God described in the Bible.

What the Bible says about election

The Bible is completely saturated with instances about the elected and predestination. I will touch on a few of the more overt verses.



Ephesians 1:4-5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Here it clearly states God’s predestination of salvation to those whom He chose from the beginning.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-15
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.


Why would God deliberately cause someone to believe falsely? Why would He force them to be judged? Now, whether or not you think this is talking about the antichrist (I don’t), it doesn’t matter. What matters here is that God FORCED someone to not believe. If He can force someone to not believe, which overrides their “freewill”, then He absolutely can force someone to believe. And, as we keep reading, it becomes blatantly evident that He chose us (v13) for salvation by sanctifying us.

Revelation 14:3-5
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.


Okay, I’m going to get into eschatology. Whether you believe the 144K are Jews or not is irrelevant because of what it says about these people. Keep in mind that we’ve established that God is unchanging. He is the same forever. Why then, does it seem that salvation is different during the end times? Is it? If you believe in freewill, it is, thus creating a theological problem. If you believe in freewill, then there are two ways for salvation because of what is said about the 144K. This again, creates a problem because it negates freewill’s power. If there are two types of salvation, are they both absolute? What amount of freewill can supersede God’s nullification of it? I probably don’t have to say this, but the very thought of two types of salvation goes against God.

What else does this say? Not defiled by women… no lies… blameless? How can this be? How can they be perfect? Obviously, this is an allusion for sin and the sanctification of Christ’s sacrifice and how it erased THEIR sins (unlimited limited atonement… whole new discussion). The verses focus on the blamelessness of the 144K; not everyone else. Moreover, they were “purchased”. They did not sell themselves. They had no choice in this matter, much like if you make a purchase, the object being purchased doesn’t have a say.


Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.


Again, not going to get into eschatology, but it’s important to note how sin is paralleled with “earth (the world)” in Revelation. Those that dwell on the “earth” were not written in the book of life from the foundation of world.

Romans 9:9-24
For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


This is the kicker… these verses. I think Romans 9 makes it as clear as you can possibly make it. The twins had done nothing good or bad because they weren’t born, but, so that God’s will could be done according to His choice but not based on ANY work, God chose to love one and hate the other. Paul even knew that this would cause questions, so he further addresses it by saying God’s choice is His own and He only answers to Himself. He will have mercy on whom He wants and He will damn others so that His purpose can be served (Pharaoh).

So, in closing, it is my belief that salvation is not up to a choice made by anyone. God chooses salvation. He chose those who would be saved from the beginning. Also, there is no such thing as freewill.

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23-01-2012, 06:26 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(23-01-2012 02:39 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...so that God’s will could be done according to His choice but not based on ANY work, God chose to love one and hate the other. Paul even knew that this would cause questions, so he further addresses it by saying God’s choice is His own and He only answers to Himself. He will have mercy on whom He wants and He will damn others so that His purpose can be served (Pharaoh).

So, in closing, it is my belief that salvation is not up to a choice made by anyone. God chooses salvation. He chose those who would be saved from the beginning. Also, there is no such thing as freewill.

And this is all based on a feeling and a work of fiction.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-01-2012, 07:39 PM
RE: Arminianisn and Calvinism.
(23-01-2012 06:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-01-2012 02:39 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...so that God’s will could be done according to His choice but not based on ANY work, God chose to love one and hate the other. Paul even knew that this would cause questions, so he further addresses it by saying God’s choice is His own and He only answers to Himself. He will have mercy on whom He wants and He will damn others so that His purpose can be served (Pharaoh).

So, in closing, it is my belief that salvation is not up to a choice made by anyone. God chooses salvation. He chose those who would be saved from the beginning. Also, there is no such thing as freewill.

And this is all based on a feeling and a work of fiction.

You're a work of fiction.

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