Army
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-08-2010, 11:04 AM
Army
Hey everybody, how's the weekend?

Well, on this Wednesday I'm going to enlist to the Israel Defense Force (IDF) and since this is so close subjec to me right now (obviously) I wanted to know your thoughts about the military service. Are you soldiers? did you used to be? did you thought about enlisting the military of your country?

In Israel the military is "religious friendly" (Jewish religious, of course...) so the kitchen is Kosher and the ones who go to synagogue in the morning for the Shaharit prayer are getting 50 minutes in the morning to do so. 50 minutes which I think I will use, because if you don't- you are doing tasks or sport instead. Is that very hypocrite from my side?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2010, 08:28 AM
RE: Army
Hey, shiranl.

I was in the Canadian Forces for four years in the 90s. Out of curiosity, are you enlisting out of choice or is it due to mandatory military service?

I was 17 when I joined. I didn't really understand the world and I had a very romantic view of what the military was and what war was. I think I actually believed, "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori." In his book, "On Aggression," Konrad Lorenz talks about the idea of militant enthusiasm. I think it was for this reason that I thought being in the army was cool.

I quickly became disenchanted with the military and later in life became disenchanted with the idea of war itself. I believe that a world without war is possible, so I now choose not to participate in it. Unfortunately, the conditions necessary for a world without war are not the conditions of today. So wars will be fought. I think that as a member of the IDF you stand a strong chance of being deployed into combat.

I've long said that being a soldier is about pain. It's about inflicting it on other people and about enduring it yourself. So I guess you just have to come to terms with your own feelings of sacrificing your mind and body in whole or in part to the IDF and with hurting or killing other people. Why would you engage in that? I think that question needs to be clear in your mind.

I don't think it's hypocritical on your side. I think it's disingenuous but hey, I'd want the extra break too. Hell, I've given blood to get a break. I think the larger concern is, will you get in shit if they find out what you're doing (I think the way I understood it is that you're taking the break for yourself. I suppose you could have meant you're going to go pray. If that's the case, it's only hypocrisy if you aren't a believer.)

If you do join and you get deployed into combat, my best wishes go with you. Come home safe. I just hope that the need for armies goes away sooner rather than later.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2010, 02:03 PM
Hey Matt, thank you for your honest answer.
Yes, the service in Israel is mandatory (for part of the population- religious and Arabs don't have to enlist). But if it was by choice, I think I would do a couple of years in service anyway.

I have no romantic idea about the military (apart from meeting a guy or two Tongue ). I know it's going to be difficult, I know I will miss my home and I know that my days of waking up whenever I want are over.

"I believe that a world without war is possible"
I don't know if you actually fought during your military service, I don't know if you actually sow dead and injured people. I just know that after 18 years of living at war, after my dad told me "don't worry, you won't have to enlist when you'll be older" when I was 6 y.o and sow my oldest sister enlist, after seeing Cast Lead, Second Lebanone war and Second Intifada- after all that, I am sorry to tell you, but world peace won't happen. Ever. there are too many people in this world who don't want peace, who just want power and money. In the meanwhile, I prefer to be in the winning side.

I have no chance of deployed into combat because from the simple reason I am not drafting to a combat unite. I will be most of my service in an office with air conditioning digging out papers.

"I've long said that being a soldier is about pain"
I am strongly disagree with this saying. I think it is about pride, about loving your country, about wanting your family and friends to be safe. I don't know how the citizens of Canada think about your army, but I can say to you that if there is something the people of Israel are truely proud of- it is the IDF. Walking in the street with the IDF uniform will gane you respectful looks. Because here the word "war" is real. And wearing the IDF uniform is declaring " I am protecting the country".
Why would I engage to that? because the danger to me, my family, my friends and my whole nation is real. Exist and kicking. That why.

I will go to the synagogue for 50 minutes, I won't pray but I will be present in the synagogue. If I say I'm going to the synagogue while I'm in my room completing sleep hours, so yeah- I can get into real shit. But I won't do it. I just going to enjoy 50 minutes of silence.

As I already said, I won't get into a combat (unless the war will be in the hinterland, then I'll be in danger together with the rest of the country) but thank you for your wishes anyway.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2010, 03:49 PM
RE: Army
I wish you luck!

Here, when one is 17-18, he'll have to attend mandatory military service/civil service or ask for deferment because of studies or something else.
The groups freed from the service are all women, people living in Ahvenanmaa (a demilitarized zone) and the jehovas provers.
I do not like that if one refuses to attend military/civil service(360 days), he has to go to prison for 181 days, UNLESS he's a jehovas prover...Angry

And why do they call themselfs ''jehovas provers'', even though all they can prove is that they can come knocking on your door, interrupting a peaceful beautiful summer sunday morning and it doesnt help when you live 6kilometers to the nearest grocery store, they'll still find you (mostly because my uncle is one:dodgySmile and try to convert you.Angry

Sorry, after the first sentence i went a little off-topic, i couldnt help myself, they really did wake me up one beautiful summer morning...

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2010, 03:55 PM
RE: Army
Hey, shiranl.

I grew up in Canada, so no, I've never personally had to live in a war zone. My grandparents generation all fought in WWII and I have friends that have been deployed to Bosnia, Haiti, Cyprus, the Gulf and Afghanistan and even friends who were killed, but (thankfully) I was never deployed myself. So I totally get your pessimistic view about the possibility of a world without war. I totally do. But like I said, the conditions necessary are not the conditions we have today. So the conditions in your region would have to change. Without doubt. I have both Israeli and Palestinian friends so I have some hint of how intractable a situation it is, but it can't last forever. Moreover, it won't last forever. Guaranteed. So hopefully there is a change that brings about the conditions that will make war unnecessary. I think it's possible. I hope I'm right.

I'm glad to hear you're doing logistical work. Just don't eat too much McDonald's. My friend did that. He got fat Big Grin

I can understand your feelings about the IDF and how the immediacy of the war affects people's perception. When Canada was at war, the uniform was equally respected. Canadian drama is notorious for lauding that. So I get that too.

Thanks for clarifying the synagogue thing to me. Yeah. I don't think it's particularly hypocritical.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2010, 05:30 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2010 05:33 PM by shiranl.)
RE: Army
Kikko,

thanks for your good luck, I'm sure going to need itSmile

May I ask where is "here" for you?
I know your feeling, the same is happening here with the orthodox Jewish. A few days ago the Knesset aproved a law which basicly says religious don't have to do military service and instead they can do whatever they want! until now they postpone the military service to the age of 22 and then they had a choice- keep learning and dedicate their life to the Torah or do a service (most of them, of course, choose learning). Now they have an overall release which basicly means that they get to the age of 22 and then have a choice- draft or do whatever they feel like. Travel, university, get married and have children (well, most of them are getting married in age of 18-19 so it doesn't really matter....) while the secular are getting their ass ripped off in the army for 2-3 years and then, when they go out they need to get their ass ripped off again in order to have money for university/travel/whatever......

Ghost,

Can you tell me what is the conditions necessery to a world without wars? I can tell you what they are- the human races' extinction. Specificly in my zone- even the destruction of Israel won't finish the wars here. Because, unfortunately, the only thing that keeps the Arabs together is hating Israel. Israel gone- they'll need another subject to hate. The farest- Europe and USA. The nearest- own self. There are animals that are willing to share their territory with their own kind- human being isn't one of them.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2010, 02:57 AM
RE: Army
Quote:May I ask where is "here" for you?
FinlandUndecided I feel a little uncomfortable saying it, I dont like the ''Finland-image'' given to the foreign world and I dont like the national pride and thinking we're somehow better than (for example) Sweden, and that there would be a cultural difference between Finland and the rest of the western world. Some people even talk about how multi-culturalism is bad (argument against immigration) and at the same time they're eating a burger, drinking cola, and then they drive home with a SUV to wath big brother...Smile

Quote:Now they have an overall release which basicly means that they get to the age of 22 and then have a choice- draft or do whatever they feel like. Travel, university, get married and have children (well, most of them are getting married in age of 18-19 so it doesn't really matter....) while the secular are getting their ass ripped off in the army for 2-3 years and then, when they go out they need to get their ass ripped off again in order to have money for university/travel/whatever......

So, the state sponsors the studying of those who choose studying instead of military service?

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2010, 04:21 AM
RE: Army
(15-08-2010 02:57 AM)Kikko Wrote:  FinlandUndecided I feel a little uncomfortable saying it, I dont like the ''Finland-image'' given to the foreign world and I dont like the national pride and thinking we're somehow better than (for example) Sweden, and that there would be a cultural difference between Finland and the rest of the western world. Some people even talk about how multi-culturalism is bad (argument against immigration) and at the same time they're eating a burger, drinking cola, and then they drive home with a SUV to wath big brother...Smile

Well, it is better then the image Israel has.....

Quote:So, the state sponsors the studying of those who choose studying instead of military service?

Yes....and it pisses me off!!!!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2010, 08:36 AM
RE: Army
Hey, shiranl.

You're not the only one that views the extinction of the species as the only way out. I don't share that view personally. Well, I mean, it'd work, but I think there's better solutions.

Quote:In nature, all pursue survival for themselves and their kind. But they can do so only within biologically evolved limits. The living order of nature, though it has no ruler, is not in the least anarchic. Each pursues a kind of self- interest, each is a law unto itself, but the separate interests and laws have been formed over aeons of selection to form part of a tightly ordered harmonious system. Although the state of nature involves struggle, the struggle is part of an order. Each component of the living system has a defined place out of which no ambition can extricate it. Hunting- gathering societies were to a very great extent likewise contained by natural limits.

With the rise of civilization, the limits fall away. The natural self-interest and pursuit of survival remain, but they are no longer governed by any order. The new civilized forms of society, with more complex social and political structures, created the new possibility of indefinite social expansion: more and more people organized over more and more territory. All other forms of life had always found inevitable limits placed upon their growth by scarcity and consequent death. But civilized society was developing the unprecedented capacity for unlimited growth as an entity. (The limitlessness of this possibility does not emerge fully at the outset, but rather becomes progressively more realized over the course of history as people invent methods of transportation, communication, and governance which extend the range within which coherence and order can be maintained.) Out of the living order there emerged a living entity with no defined place.

In a finite world, societies all seeking to escape death- dealing scarcity through expansion will inevitably come to confront each other. Civilized societies, therefore, though lacking inherent limitations to their growth, do encounter new external limits - in the form of one another. Because human beings (like other living creatures) have "excess reproductive capacity," meaning that human numbers tend to increase indefinitely unless a high proportion of the population dies prematurely, each civilized society faces an unpleasant choice. If an expanding society willingly stops where its growth would infringe upon neighboring societies, it allows death to catch up and overtake its population. If it goes beyond those limits, it commits aggression. With no natural order or overarching power to prevent it, some will surely choose to take what belongs to their neighbors rather than to accept the limits that are compulsory for every other form of life.

-Schmookler's Parable of the Tribe

Our system is based on unlimited growth. To continually grow we must either increase our production efficiency and generate greater output with the same input or we need to annex more resources so we have more inputs. So as long as our system is based on unlimited growth, war is inevitable.

We are trapped in a search for power. Schmookler's Parable of the Tribe states that as long as a single group is engaged in the search for power, all other groups must do so themselves and even if they don't they will be made to. If a group flees, the power maximisers take their territory (fleeing no longer being an option as the entire planet is claimed). If they are assimilated, they become the power maximisers. If they are killed, the power maximisers get the territory. If they organise themselves to fight, they must become power maximisers themselves.

We live in a world that is trapped in a Nash Equilibrium. Everyone is playing a game, that of annihilator (expand unlimitedly and annihilate any competition that stands in your way), in which no one benefits from unilaterally changing their strategy. So no one does. According to the idea of the peer polity system, if a polity were to change their strategy or even to collapse, then the other polities would use their surplus energy to move in and take over that territory as they have a constant need to expand.

A Nash Equilibrium is highly resistant to invasion by alternate strategies. That is the challenge. Breaking the Nash Equilibrium by some means.

The bottom line is, in order to have a world without war, we need to have systems in place that are not based on the maximisation of power and on unlimited growth. They need to be based on the acceptance of the death that is the natural result of living within limits instead of constantly trying to push past them. The two-fold difficulty is that if one player becomes a power maximiser they can force the rest of us into that strategy and in order to move from where we are to there, we have to break a particularly tenacious Nash Equilibrium.

Those are the conditions required: limited competition, limited production, both positive and negative growth based not on arbitrary decisions but on the real-time carrying capacity of the region. I think it's possible, but if I'm wrong, hey, there's always your alternative.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2010, 10:41 AM
RE: Army
Quote:The bottom line is, in order to have a world without war, we need to have systems in place that are not based on the maximisation of power and on unlimited growth. They need to be based on the acceptance of the death that is the natural result of living within limits instead of constantly trying to push past them. The two-fold difficulty is that if one player becomes a power maximiser they can force the rest of us into that strategy and in order to move from where we are to there, we have to break a particularly tenacious Nash Equilibrium.

Those are the conditions required: limited competition, limited production, both positive and negative growth based not on arbitrary decisions but on the real-time carrying capacity of the region. I think it's possible, but if I'm wrong, hey, there's always your alternative.

And to think there are people who claim professional academics don't offer practical solutions to real world problems. Rolleyes

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: