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06-09-2010, 12:31 AM
 
RE: Army
(06-09-2010 12:16 AM)athnostic Wrote:  Yes, I was aware of that. I'm not sure I could be so positive about the prospect (as the author of this thread was), knowing as I do how Palestinians are treated in the Middle East, that Israel is a bully, and that our support of their actions over the years has more to do with christian Zionism than with justice. I told you this opinion wouldn't be popular.

I don't know that the author was pleased or displeased with the prospect. I have deployed numerous times, and I don't talk about hard it is to go until it's over. It's odd, you try to look for the best in it because you KNOW it's going to be bad. And looking for the best in it keeps you from getting depressed. I took it the way I would have felt, knowing that war is inevitable for my profession and I think that she's dealing with it the best way she can, by trying not to complain about it.

(06-09-2010 12:16 AM)athnostic Wrote:  Chalk pacifism up to "naivety" (which is code for under-informed and ignorant of the real world) if you wish, as long as you're prepared to be called "pessimistic" and "jaded." Big Grin

but I AM pessimistic and jaded. I prefer to call it being a realist, but I am aware that the terms are relatively synonymous. But I do believe that the concept of pacifism is great, and if we were all pacifists, well, that would be great too. But the moment someone uses a tool as a weapon (screwdriver, axe, gun) as something other than a tool and tries to inflict pain, then pacifism falls apart. It's not a practical world view IMHO.

(06-09-2010 12:16 AM)athnostic Wrote:  No. You have every right to choose to make a living as a soldier. I would never, ever do so. (This is where you tell me that it's those willing to serve who have preserved my freedom of choice. Perhaps.) Our military campaigns over the years have pissed off the rest of the world to the extent that we must defend ourselves with frequency. What a self-perpetuating mess.

I didn't mean to be offensive, but I can't deny I feel strongly about the situation in the Middle East.

In some ways, you know that I am right. We were built around military campaigns. But the military is not the reason Al Quaeda attacked us. It was a clash with their dogmatic fundamentalist beliefs that caused them to attack us. And for that reason, we will always need someone watching the gate, as it were.

The reason you can choose not to be a soldier is because we (as a nation) came to the conclusion that a conscript army was not compatible the type of service that we need. A conscript army is not practical for the U.S. because it NEEDS to be about freedom of choice. Drafted soldiers served with honor when we had them, but it was a sad time in our nations history when we needed them. I am sorry that the draft ever HAD to happen. So please, choose not to be a soldier. Feel free to choose anything that you want, because by exercising your rights, and voicing your opinion, you make the people that died for those rights mean something.

And I believe that you have every right to your opinion. I have strong feelings about the middle east as well. I just know that the problems over there are not solely military. They are religious. I think that when we stamp out religion, we will be much closer to pacifism.

And i wasn't so much offended at you as I was offended at your seconding what I felt was an attack on my job. I was angrier at TruthAddict than anything else.

No hard feelings on my end. Just know that I love my country and hate my job. That causes conflicts within me.
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06-09-2010, 09:30 AM
 
RE: Army
Quote:In some ways, you know that I am right. We were built around military campaigns. But the military is not the reason Al Quaeda attacked us. It was a clash with their dogmatic fundamentalist beliefs that caused them to attack us. And for that reason, we will always need someone watching the gate, as it were.

You are right, and I'll gladly admit it. Smile I do believe a defense force is necessary. I also believe that ours must be as large as it is because so many people are mad at us. Religion is a huge part of the problem: Our country supports Israel because so many of our leaders hold to the asinine belief that Jesus won't return until the Jews are living in and controlling the Middle East. Our government has overlooked all sorts of civil rights violations in this pursuit. Religion is a great excuse for fundamentalist Muslims to hate us, but they have other reasons too. (Our unjust support of Israel among others.) Our country was built around military campaigns, most of which were absolutely repugnant and left members of my own family without land or culture.

Quote: I think that when we stamp out religion, we will be much closer to pacifism.

Absolutely!

Quote:And i wasn't so much offended at you as I was offended at your seconding what I felt was an attack on my job.

Me inserting foot into mouth here: ___________ Smile
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06-09-2010, 09:38 AM
RE: Army
Quote:Our country supports Israel because so many of our leaders hold to the asinine belief that Jesus won't return until the Jews are living in and controlling the Middle East.

That's pretty paranoid and I'm fairly certain that 60 years of US policy has not been set by religious views.

We support Israel for two primary reasons: first because they are the only democracy in the middle east and the US policy is to support democracies wherever they exist and second because, while Jews are a minority in the US, there are enough Jews in key voting states to swing a US presidential election. You can decide on your own which of these two reasons take precedents.

However, I'd point out that if it wasn't for oil then this wouldn't ever be in question. Except for Israel, middle eastern governments are a combination of monarchies, where the monarch reigns supreme, dictatorships, where the dictator reigns supreme, and theocracies, which tend also to be dictatorships to some extent. You think if there wasn't oil there would ever even be a question as to what country the US should throw its weight behind?

These conditions exist in other parts of the world where the is no oil, and, strangely, it does not get all that much press or attention. Most of Africa and parts of Asia have the same problems as the Mid East and no one says "boo" about it. Not just governments, but ordinary people too.

And, as for Israel's policies, while I think some of what they do is indefensible, they are not the party shooting missiles into civilian areas or convincing children to strap bombs on themselves and sending them to blow themselves up on buses or in shopping centers. This pretense you seem to put forth that the Palestinians have no culpability for what goes on in Israel is simply not based on any actual reality.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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06-09-2010, 12:57 PM
RE: Army
I'm gone for 2 days and the whole threads' subject is changed Tongue

Soldieringon- for your question, I was pleased when I enlisted, but I didn't know where I'm putting my self in. It is hard, but there are moments you know all the suffer worth something- moment which I had yesterday, when I sang Israel's antheam with my uniform in the very first time.
As I know my self now, I think I wouldv'e enlist anyway, even if it wasn't obligation. But I guess that if it wasn't obligation I wouldv'e brought up completely different. Yes, I am proud being part of the Israel Defense Force.
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06-09-2010, 02:56 PM
 
RE: Army
(06-09-2010 12:57 PM)shiranl Wrote:  I'm gone for 2 days and the whole threads' subject is changed Tongue

Soldieringon- for your question, I was pleased when I enlisted, but I didn't know where I'm putting my self in. It is hard, but there are moments you know all the suffer worth something- moment which I had yesterday, when I sang Israel's antheam with my uniform in the very first time.
As I know my self now, I think I wouldv'e enlist anyway, even if it wasn't obligation. But I guess that if it wasn't obligation I wouldv'e brought up completely different. Yes, I am proud being part of the Israel Defense Force.

Shiranl, if it is all right with you, I will ask my questions by private message. I am not here to get into a legal or moral discussion as to whether Israel's army needs to be there, or who needs to be shooting at whom. I think I might unsubscribe from the thread if it keeps going.

And as for you enlisting in the military? I understand where you are coming from. There is a huge amount of patriotism involved in putting on a uniform in defense of your country. And there is a lot of pride n that, as there should be. Keep your head down and stay safe. Smile

I respect you for making your choices and being willing to admit that you would have done the same either way. that takes courage and conviction, both of which seem to be harder to come by these days.

keep coming back to us safe, okay?
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07-09-2010, 12:05 AM
RE: Army
That's OK by me (don't forget I was the first one to suggest the PM Smile ). I am not here to get into those discussions either since I have few days at home and getting into political discaussion isn't my vacation-dream........

thank you Smile
I will keep coming back to you, but now I am much further from my home, so I'll come back a lot less.
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07-09-2010, 03:18 PM
RE: Army
(13-08-2010 11:04 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Hey everybody, how's the weekend?

Well, on this Wednesday I'm going to enlist to the Israel Defense Force (IDF) and since this is so close subjec to me right now (obviously) I wanted to know your thoughts about the military service. Are you soldiers? did you used to be? did you thought about enlisting the military of your country?

In Israel the military is "religious friendly" (Jewish religious, of course...) so the kitchen is Kosher and the ones who go to synagogue in the morning for the Shaharit prayer are getting 50 minutes in the morning to do so. 50 minutes which I think I will use, because if you don't- you are doing tasks or sport instead. Is that very hypocrite from my side?
Okay, I'm attempting to reply to the thread's original question Tongue

First of all, good luck in the Forces!
I am not a soldier, but my boyfriend is, so it's a close subject to me as well. I never considered enlisting because I am much more interested in academics, and I cannot stand unquestionable authority Smile
My boyfriend has run into the same kind of problems in the Canadian Forces. His unit got a tour of the military prison, where it was mentioned that religious prisoners get 45 minutes to pray and an hour for "Fellowship" each day. That's a significant amount of time, considering that prisoners are being punished throughout the day. My boyfriend asked if atheists get a break, and the answer was no. So every prisoner says they are religious when they are sent there. (A side note: the staff said that it's usually religious people who get sent there in the first place.)
The Canadian Forces also gives religious holidays off for religious people, but it doesn't use up any leave (allotted time off each year). However, if an atheist wants a holiday, they have no religious holidays to get off (excluding national holidays like Christmas), so they have to use one of their leave days.
So, I don't think you are being hypocritical; the system just has to be adjusted to give atheists the same rights as theists.

Also, without getting into any political discussions about soldiers and armies, I would like to lend my support and thanks to all the vets and currently-serving soldiers on this site. I didn't realise there were so many! Good luck and stay safe <3

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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16-09-2010, 04:54 AM
RE: Army
(06-09-2010 12:16 AM)athnostic Wrote:  
Quote:And you, Athnostic... Have you thought to consider the fact that Israel has a conscript army? That wearing a uniform is compulsory?

Yes, I was aware of that. I'm not sure I could be so positive about the prospect (as the author of this thread was), knowing as I do how Palestinians are treated in the Middle East, that Israel is a bully, and that our support of their actions over the years has more to do with christian Zionism than with justice. I told you this opinion wouldn't be popular.

Chalk pacifism up to "naivety" (which is code for under-informed and ignorant of the real world) if you wish, as long as you're prepared to be called "pessimistic" and "jaded." Big Grin

Quote:You want to complain about soldiers doing the jobs that they signed on to do?

No. You have every right to choose to make a living as a soldier. I would never, ever do so. (This is where you tell me that it's those willing to serve who have preserved my freedom of choice. Perhaps.) Our military campaigns over the years have pissed off the rest of the world to the extent that we must defend ourselves with frequency. What a self-perpetuating mess.

I didn't mean to be offensive, but I can't deny I feel strongly about the situation in the Middle East.

Dear Madam,
Please stop reading your al-jazeera/crazy leftist blog reports and go to middle east to see where the Palestinians are oppressed. I can promise you that if you actually took time to actually research the subject, not just spewing your idiotic hackneyed drivel, you would find out that Palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do in ANY OTHER ARAB COUNTRY. Yes, Israel allows Israeli Palestinians to become doctors, lawyers, soldiers, law enforcement officers, judges and hold any position of public office. Meanwhile, in Lebanon, Palestinian Lebanese must fight to obtain a vocation in the white collar sector.

Now, one has all right to claim that the Gazans are oppressed people because of the security wall, but you would just plain wrong. Gazans are oppressed because of the government THEY elected, Hamas. Israel doesn't force them to wear burkas and become a shahid; Hamas does. Israel doesn't steal the humanitarian aid sent to Gaza (in fact, Israel is the leading donator of humanitarian aid to Gaza - by the way, when was the last time the USA sent millions of pounds of humanitarian aid to an enemy country while it was receiving constant rocket attacks from said country? - but do you know what Hamas does with the humanitarian aid sent to Gaza? It hoards it and prevents it from reaching the people who need it.

As I'm sure you are aware of (since you seem to be an expert in the current middle east affairs), once violence in a certain region ceases, Israel will remove all barriers and walls and integrate said area into Israel ( as seen this past month).

To claim that the only reason the USA helps Israel is because of the zionist lobby or whatnot, is absurd. The USA supports Israel because it is the only democracy in the middle east and they both strive for the same thing: freedom and opportunity for all.

Perhaps another reason the USA and Israel get along so well, and are both always working together - both in military, government and private industry - is because both countries are leading experts in the worlds in certain fields. For example, Israel and the USA army co-develop weapon systems and satellites. Both Israel and the USA are constantly looking for the cure to illnesses and diseases.

Please pm me the next time you come to the middle east so I can take you around and show you where the Palestinians are actually oppressed.

P.S. Don't forget your credit card so we can go shopping in the brand new luxury mall and play at the new water park that the starving citizens of Gaza have built in the past 3 months.

You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion. - L. Ron Hubbard (Creater of Scientology)
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