Arrogance, hostility and anger
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-07-2013, 08:19 AM
Arrogance, hostility and anger
I was recently accused by four theists of being angry, hostile and arrogant in presenting my opinion. The accusation was not entirely without merit. After all, I was calling them bigots for their stand on homosexuality and their stubborn refusal to accept what modern science keeps telling us about the nature of homosexuality (that is, the fact that gays are born that way) and for their adherence to the superstitious ramblings of Bronze Age goat-herders who thought nothing amiss when their God commanded them to execute a man for the crime of picking up sticks on a Friday night and to execute a married woman for the crime of not yelling loud enough while being raped in the city.

So they called me arrogant, hostile and angry.

Funny thing is, I can think of nothing more arrogant than refusing to change your mind no matter what evidence is presented because you're convinced that your position is backed by the Creator of the Universe. And I can think of nothing more hostile or angry than threatening to sent anyone who disagrees with you to hell.

I don't think I can muster the arrogance, hostility or anger to compete with that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like TwoCultSurvivor's post
09-07-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
Shame, and intimidation can be good tactics to get someone to renounce beliefs, or to reconsider them. But you have to know your audience, and these tactics might only further harden their convictions.

Educating people on how to think - and how to act ("fine, there is no such thing as magic, but I'll still act like there is because community, comfort, habit, etc.") is not easy, not quick, and not a one size fits all approach.

People are delusional for many reasons.

And although it's a good tactic to show signs of opposition (you may be one drop in the ocean, but if enough people do it...) but if you're ham fisted about it (making poor arguments, or coming off as crazed, or weird - not saying that you were, just in general) that again will only reinforce their beliefs.

Remember, people don't become religious, or delusional because someone now an again raged at them. And these same people won't be de converted if someone now and again rages at them
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like PoolBoyG's post
09-07-2013, 11:49 AM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
(09-07-2013 10:44 AM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Shame, and intimidation can be good tactics to get someone to renounce beliefs, or to reconsider them. But you have to know your audience, and these tactics might only further harden their convictions.

Educating people on how to think - and how to act ("fine, there is no such thing as magic, but I'll still act like there is because community, comfort, habit, etc.") is not easy, not quick, and not a one size fits all approach.

People are delusional for many reasons.

And although it's a good tactic to show signs of opposition (you may be one drop in the ocean, but if enough people do it...) but if you're ham fisted about it (making poor arguments, or coming off as crazed, or weird - not saying that you were, just in general) that again will only reinforce their beliefs.

Remember, people don't become religious, or delusional because someone now an again raged at them. And these same people won't be de converted if someone now and again rages at them

While what you say is true in the short term, there are many people who have written to people like Dawkins and other "hardline" atheists who thanked them for getting them started on the road to recovery from religious brainwashing. I think that when it comes to arguing with theists, "let 1000 flowers bloom", to quote possibly the only memorable aphorism ever to come from Chairman Mao. Smile I think it is great to befriend theists where that is possible and for some people that works. Certainly, it is great to work together with liberal theists to support secular causes like separation of church and state and opposition to hardline bible thumper based laws restricting civil rights. It is also valuable to come right out and be as blasphemous as possible when exposing the horror stories in the bible. IMHO, the one phrase which has caused the most significant change in public perception of atheism is Dawkins' "The God of The Bible is the most unpleasant character in all of fiction!". It provokes theists to look around for contrary evidence and to look at Dawkins' arguments with a view to refuting them. Looking for refutation of atheist arguments in The Bible is the surest way to find your way to atheism.

I suspect your last sentence is false for kids who were bullied by religious parents into going to church.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ufo42's post
09-07-2013, 11:53 AM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
I know reading Dawkins was a real eye-opener for me. I was already atheist at that stage but seeing someone dare to say what I was thinking - dare to be *so* rude about religion... it was GREAT! And I think as you say, many in church who're just token attenders - maybe kids who can't shake off their parents or something - would actually be chuffed to hear some hardline 'this is dumb' comments.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
09-07-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
PoolBoy, there is a place for a polite approach, and there is a place for in-your-face, I've-had-enough-of-your-crap and you're-not-going-to-get-away-with-it-unchallenged arguments as well. These people think nothing of calling other people perverts and an abomination, nor are they concerned about civility when consigning people to eternal damnation. When they do these things, they do not deserve civility in response. They deserve to know that they are bullying, pure and simple, and that there are some among us who are not going to put up with it anymore.

As a side note, there are many, many people who became religious, or whose religion was reinforced, because someone raged at them. The hellfire and brimstone preachers get away with their tactics precisely because they are effective.

That said, I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't think it's universally applicable. Sometimes you have to talk to a bully to get him to see the error of his ways. Other times, you need to punch him in the nose and let him know there's more coming if he keeps that s### up.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TwoCultSurvivor's post
09-07-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
(09-07-2013 12:58 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  PoolBoy, there is a place for a polite approach, and there is a place for in-your-face, I've-had-enough-of-your-crap and you're-not-going-to-get-away-with-it-unchallenged arguments as well. These people think nothing of calling other people perverts and an abomination, nor are they concerned about civility when consigning people to eternal damnation. When they do these things, they do not deserve civility in response. They deserve to know that they are bullying, pure and simple, and that there are some among us who are not going to put up with it anymore.

As a side note, there are many, many people who became religious, or whose religion was reinforced, because someone raged at them. The hellfire and brimstone preachers get away with their tactics precisely because they are effective.

That said, I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't think it's universally applicable. Sometimes you have to talk to a bully to get him to see the error of his ways. Other times, you need to punch him in the nose and let him know there's more coming if he keeps that s### up.

Whatever you do, don't let anger at what they do influence your decisions. Seriously...don't do it. Please.

If these people post untrue things about your character or say untrue things about your character, then tell them not to do it or you will have them charged with libel and/or slander. (this will shut them up quick!)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-07-2013, 01:13 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
Telling someone he's going to hell is probably protected speech.
Their comments about abomination and perversion are directed at gay people. I am not gay, so I have no standing to complain about libel or slander.

I left out that two of them are family, a cousin and a brother.

That said, I am not losing sleep over the opinions of bigots. My cousin decided to limit contact with me. My brother decided he can't change my mind and would rather talk about jokes we've heard lately. The other two were strangers who can go violate themselves with a rotten cucumber for all I care. Wink
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TwoCultSurvivor's post
09-07-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
I sincerely try my best to avoid insults. However, if I feel insulted, I will often return the favor. But I still attack their argument rather than then personally. I won't call them a bigot, but I will say they have bigoted opinions. But still, sometimes the fuck you comes out.

What I am completely against though is telling a religious person straight out of the gate that their beliefs are retarded, stupid, idiotic, etc.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes NoahsFarce's post
09-07-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
It wasn't out of the gate.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-07-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Arrogance, hostility and anger
The conversation started with a very civil observation that despite what my cousin was asserting, gays are in fact born that way. For this, I was threatened with eternal hellfire because I was leading people down the road to perdition. To which I replied, no... they are born that way.

Then I was accused of secretly being gay, to which I replied, no, they are born that way. Then I was accused of setting myself up to be smarter than God. To which I replied that if gays are born that way, which they are, then either God and the Bible are wrong about gays or the people with whom I was arguing are wrong about God.

Then I was presented with a list of verses that condemn homosexuality. To which I replied with a list of other abominations in the Bible. Like shellfish or sleeping with your wife during her period.

Then I was told that homosexuality is different because it has the death penalty attached. To which I replied that God gives the death penalty to people who pick up sticks on a Friday night and married women who get raped in the city. Then they said I sounded like an atheist. To which I replied thank you, Mr. Holmes.

Then I was told I had no excuse to be atheist because God blessed me with a beautiful family. To which I replied I'll send Him a thank you card for giving my son autism.

Then they said my son's autism was a blessing from the Lord because he will be forever innocent and he will go to heaven rather than be exposed to my atheism. To which I responded that these people were bigoted as wholes (read it out loud) who worship a capricious monster and that I was glad that I was no longer blinded to compassion like they obviously are.

I also told them I, as an atheist, was more heterosexual than they are because there's only one reason I don't sleep with men: I am not attracted to men. They don't sleep with men because they are afraid of the consequences and so they repress their homosexual urges out of obedience to God. So straight atheists are straighter than straight theists.

So they called me arrogant and told me I was going to hell.

So I took the gloves off...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like TwoCultSurvivor's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: