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28-07-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(27-07-2014 05:51 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Okay I don't believe in what the Catholic Church teaches anymore but I was a seasoned apologist when I was Catholic. I'm hoping I can debate Protestants and you might wonder, "well then why the fuck are you posting it at an Atheist forum".

It is because Christian forums are like elementary school. You can get banned for dropping an F bomb or disparaging God or the holy Bible. I'd like to debate Protestants on a forum that isn't superficial and you don't have to act like you grew up in a sheltered homeschooled environment.

Okay, so for you "Bible Christians", who think the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, which most of you do, I can show you that Catholicism is more Biblical than you.

Why are so many Protestants converting to Catholicism?

The councils that decided the Canon of Scripture that would be in the first Christian Bible took place after Christianity became the official Religion of the Roman Empire and therefore it was the Roman Catholic Church that put together the first Bible and decided the New Testament Canon that is accepted by noncatholics.

There is overwhelming evidence that the Catholic Church began in the first century and that the Papacy is nearly 2,000 years old http://www.catholic.com/tracts/browse/Papacy

Most of what people think is extremely Unchristian (Satanic) about the Church like Mariology, confession of sin to a priest, the sacrifice of the mass, seven sacraments, communion of Saints, Holy images etc. was practiced by the Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Coptic, and Orthodox Churches...

...so if those practices are Satanic and therefore not Christian as many claim, that would mean that every Christian Church on the face of the earth was propagating Satanic practices and therefore, there was not a Christian Church the earth before the 16th Century. if you follow that philosophy

So you say the Bible decides, but this begs the question when the two warring parties agree that the Bible is the final authority yet disagree on the interpretation where do we go?

Since there is a document that many are divided on wouldnt God leave us with a Supreme Court to interpret it and settle Doctrinal or interpretational disputes?

Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.

Catholicism formally (although, sadly, not always in practice) prevents the theological "pick and choose" state of affairs, which leads to the uncertainties and "every man for himself" confusion within the private interpretation system among laypeople.

Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians and the Church Fathers.

Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a "Johnny-come-lately" in the history of Christianity (having introduced many doctrines previously accepted by no Church, or very few individuals). Therefore it cannot possibly be the "restoration" of "pure", "primitive" Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its novelties and absurdly late appearance.

The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the ecumenical councils which defined and developed Christian doctrine such as the Trinity and the Nicene Creed which are embraced by most Protestants

Protestantism has too often neglected the place of liturgy in worship (with notable exceptions such as Anglicanism and Lutheranism). This is the way Christians had always worshiped down through the centuries, and thus cant be so lightly dismissed.

Many Protestant denominations have removed the Eucharist from the center and focus of Christian worship services. This is against many centuries of Christian Tradition and therefore should not be lightly dismissed.

Most Protestants (Lutherans and high-church Anglicans being the exception) believe in a merely symbolic Eucharist, which is contrary to universal Christian Tradition up to 1517, the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, and the Bible (Mt 26:26-8; Jn 6:47-63; 1 Cor 10:14-22; 11:23-30), which hold to the Real Presence

Protestantism has abolished the priesthood (Mt 18:18) and the sacrament of ordination, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Acts 6:6; 14:22; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6).

The majority of Protestants deny baptismal regeneration, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).

Protestantism denies the indissolubility of sacramental marriage and allows divorce, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Gen 2:24; Mal 2:14-16; Mt 5:32; 19:6,9; Mk
10:11-12; Lk 16:18; Rom 7:2-3; 1 Cor 7:10-14,39).

Many Protestant denominations (mostly its liberal wing, but alarmingly in many other places, too) have changed their previous stances on women pastors, abortion, and homosexuality. Catholicism remains firm on what it has always taught of such behavior being forbidden or gravely sinful.

Women pastors is contrary to Christian Tradition (including traditional Protestant theology) and the Bible (Mt 10:1-4; 1 Tim 2:11-15; 3:1-12; Titus 1:6).

Protestantism sanctions contraception,(they changed their stance) in defiance of universal Christian Tradition (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) up until 1930 - when the Anglicans first allowed it - and the Bible (Gen 38:8-10; 41:52; Ex 23:25-6; Lev 26:9; Deut 7:14; Ruth 4:13; Lk 1:24-5). Luther and Calvin, e.g., regarded it as murder. Now, only Catholicism retains the ancient Biblical Tradition.

Protestantism has contradictory views of church government, or ecclesiology (episcopal, presbyterian, congregational, or no collective authority at all), thus making widespread discipline, unity and order impossible.Some sects even claim to have "apostles" or "prophets" among them, with all the accompanying abuses of authority resulting there from and false predictions of the end times and belief's like the Rapture.

Sola scriptura could be considered an abuse of the Bible, since it is a use of the Bible contrary to its explicit and implicit testimony about itself and Tradition.The Bible is, in fact, undeniably a Christian Tradition itself.

Most Protestants do not have bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

Protestantism has no way of settling doctrinal issues definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine or interpretation x, y, or z; Or (in a more sophisticated fashion), the Protestant can simply accept the authority of some denominational tradition, confession, or creed (which then has to be justified over against the other competing ones). There is no unified Protestant Tradition.

[Image: papal+flag.png]
Typical Catholic holier-than-thou bullshit. Dodgy Glad I left it a long time ago.

By the way, "centrality of the papacy" and "apostolic succession" are nothing but smoke and mirrors to get Catholics to believe anything told to them by the church officials is "truth".

Like I said, bullshit. Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-07-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(27-07-2014 06:17 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  How does a Catholic get to Heaven?:

Seven corporal works of Mercy:

To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
These can be summed up as:

1) "Be very nice to the vulnerable because then they will be more open to your indoctrination."
2) "Carry out the indoctrination. Make sure to include threats of hell for resisting the indoctrination."

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-07-2014, 09:34 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
Damn Bucky...

Atir aissom atir imon
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28-07-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(27-07-2014 05:58 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Catholicism can be good for children I think. But Eventually one who thinks rationally will grow out of it.

I don't think Catholicism is as bizarre as the hard core Bible fundies though. The Catholic Church doesn't declare that everyone who dies Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Protestant etc. is definitely in Hell.

Actually, the Catholic church did declare exactly that until quite recently. There has been some softening of this stance since Vatican II, but much of this comes from liberal Protestantism, and the Catholic church's desire to "make nice" with them (the liberal Protestants). "Traditional" Catholics (like our friends over at Suscipe Domine) still believe that everyone is going to Hell except traditional Catholics.

As for being good for children, I don't think so. Coercing belief and good behavior with threats of eternal torture cannot be psychologically good for anyone. There are better ways to teach morality (and better moralities as well).
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28-07-2014, 10:29 AM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 11:33 AM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
(28-07-2014 01:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't see why an atheist would give a fuck about this.
I was hoping to debate theists on a nonchristian site because at Christian sites you have to be fake and act like you were raised in a sheltered environment and everyone is horrified if you use the f word, or criticize the holy Bible, or blaspheme.

I figured, the internet is huge and some theists would read this and debate me. WRONG!!

Who is that stupid wackjob who thought he could start a debate with Protestants at an Atheist forum? Laughat

There I am back in my Catholic days. I got booted when I expressed my hatred for God and blasphemies to my confessor.

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28-07-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic
That only explains why you chose an atheist forum.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-07-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic
I'll get to your other questions later. I was responding to Chas's post.
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28-07-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic
I understand that, but I was pointing out that your response didn't answer his question.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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28-07-2014, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 01:31 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
Well, IDK, so far Atheists have given good responses. Don't you think?

People can watch me outnumbered 20 to one and get owned and in the end it will educate people about why you SHOULDN"T be Catholic Sadcryface2

Anyhow, I have my own apologetics page I started years ago. I enjoyed using it on Fundie websites. I liked to quote these people when arguing with Protestants:

The Hand of God is seen in the Miracle of the Church's Durability


Is there any institution on the face of the earth that has inspired more people, survived so much persecution, had more people hate and utter every thing false against it, preached the Gospel to more people, and 2,000 years later remains the strongest and most influential organization on the planet? I there any other Christ-centered establishment that has brought so many millions of people to the Adoration of the Holy Trinity? Is there any other Church that dates back to the time of Christ?

However, even the authors of the World Book Encyclopedia who have no Catholic persuasion will confess that the Catholic Church dates back to the first Century with an unbreakable chain of Bishops of Rome dating back to the Apostle Peter.

The durability of the Catholic Church is the marvel of her enemies. It is only the hand of God that could have brought her safely through such perils, which have proved fatal to merely human institutions.

Often death seemed to have come upon her, but, sustained by her Divine vitality, she cast off disease as a garment, and rose from her bed of sickness. She is like the house or which Christ speaks in the gospel: "And the rain fell and the floods came, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock" (Matt. 7:25).

Often have her children heard the demons' exultant cry that, at last, she was overwhelmed in the wave of death. But the tempest passed, and day broke anew, and the eyes of men beheld her still firmly fixed as of old on the rock of Peter, triumphant amid the wreckage of her enemies.

"There is not," says the Protestant writer Macaulay (Essay on Ranke's 'History of the Popes'), "and there never was on this earth, a work of human policy so well deserving of examination as the Roman Catholic Church. The proudest royal houses are but of yesterday, when compared with the line of the Supreme Pontiffs.

That line we trace back in unbroken series from the Pope who crowned Napoleon in the nineteenth century to the Pope who crowned Pepin in the eighth; and far beyond the time of Pepin, the dynasty extends. . The republic of Venice came next in antiquity. But the republic of Venice was modern when compared with the Papacy; and the republic of Venice is gone, and the Papacy remains . . .

Nor do we see any sign which indicates that the term of her long domination is approaching. She saw the commencement of all the ecclesiastical establishments that now exist in the world; and we feel no assurance that she is not destined to see the end of them all.


It is not strange that, in the year 1799, even sagacious observers should have thought that, at length, the hour of the Church of Rome was come? An infidel power ascendant, the Pope dying in captivity, the most illustrious prelates of France living in a foreign non Catholic country .... . But the end was not yet.

Anarchy had had its day. A new order of things rose out of the confusion . . . and amidst them emerged the ancient religion. The Arabs have a fable that the Great Pyramid was built by antediluvian kings, and alone, of all the works of men, bore the weight of the flood. Such as this was the fate of the Papacy.

It had been buried under the great inundation; but its deep foundations had remained unshaken; and, when the waters abated, it appeared alone amidst the ruins of a world that had passed away. The Republic of Holland was gone, and the Empire of Germany, and . . . the House of Bourbon, and the parliaments and aristocracy of France.

Europe was full of young creations, a French empire, a kingdom of Italy, a Confederation of the Rhine. Nor had the late events affected only territorial limits and political institutions. The distribution of property, the composition and spirit of society had, through a great part of Catholic Europe, undergone a complete change. But the unchangeable Church was still there."

We may summarize the argument as follows: (1) The Papacy, the Rock on which the Church is built, is the only institution which has survived all the vast social and political changes and revolutions in the life and government of Europe since the days of the Roman Emperors. (2) It has survived in spite of persecution, and political intrigue; in spite of heresy and schism among its subjects, in spite of the worldliness and the weakness or incompetency of some of the Popes.

Such a survival is miraculous. The Papacy and the Church over which it presides must, therefore, be the work of God. "The Ark of the Church may be swept by the waves, but it can never sink because Christ is there" (St. Anseim).
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Viva Cristo Rey!
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28-07-2014, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 01:32 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
Although I have a disgust for Catholicism now, I do believe it will endure and nothing will destroy the Church even if it had to go underground worldwide. The Church survives even in all the countries where it is illegal to be Catholic as far as I know.

I think the Church is interesting I just can't believe that piece of bread, during a Eucharistic consecration, becomes the body, blood, soul, and divinity of God, along with other Dogmas, disciplines, and Papal encyclicals.
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