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29-07-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(28-07-2014 07:49 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:   However, there is much that I admire about Religion, which I will defend if I think people are being unreasonable in their stating with certainty that every mystical experience is a delusion, there are no miracles, prayer and faith have or serve no purpose, or with certainty that there is no intelligent providential force that is responsible for our existence.
I expect you and I will be at odds then. I do not state with certainty that no deity exists anywhere (although it is what I believe), but I do state with certainty that there is currently no reason to believe one exists anywhere. And therefore there is no reason to believe miracles, prayers, or faith accomplish anything at all.

(28-07-2014 07:49 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  I have seen lives transformed by Faith, and in many ways I was a better person when I had Catholic Faith. Had I not converted to Catholicism when I did, I'd not be surprised if I wouldn't be in prison or dead right now.
What you have seen is faith providing a motivation and faith being given the credit when in fact it was the people who transformed their own lives - including you apparently.

You seriously need to ask yourself why you think you would be in prison without religion. Is fear of hell the only thing keeping your morals in line? Consider

(28-07-2014 07:49 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  A lot of the virtues that I learned from the writings of the Saints I still practice. My conversion to Catholicism lead to a totally new heart, mind, and Conscience for me. Which I still have even though I no longer practice Catholicism.
Again, Catholicism provided you some motivation. The religion itself did nothing at all. You could have done everything that you did even if no religion ever existed. Maybe you wouldn't have, but that's beside the point. What you needed was motivation, not religion. Many other things could have provided that just as well, but I don't know all the circumstances of your life to spell them out specifically for you.

(28-07-2014 07:49 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  There is much that the Church, the Pope, and the Saints teach that I think is extremely wise, noble, moral, and without reproach. It's just I can't embrace a lot of the other Dogmas, especially the Eucharist, Eternal Damnation, the idea that our suffering (crosses) atone for sin, or the glorification of suffering (penance).
Some of it is good. But religion isn't needed to teach the very same good things. And, with religion, you get all the other unwanted and undesirable baggage. No thanks. A burglar who gives his child a present did a good thing on the face of it, but he's still a burglar who should go to jail. It would be better if he wasn't a burglar and still gave his child a present.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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29-07-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(28-07-2014 04:44 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  If you read the Catechism or the teachings of the Church Magisterium, it makes way WAY more sense than the Bible.

I'm not so sure about that. I have tried reading the Catechism, and it reminds me of what one of Pope John Paul II's teachers said about him: "Writes much, says little". It's a bunch of fancy big words, but trying to extract any real meaning out of it is like trying to grab smoke. There are sections of the Catechism that I have read many times over, and I still couldn't tell you what those sections actually say, or what they mean.
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29-07-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
K impulse I liked some of what you said.

Actually nothing changed my heart like a conversion to Catholicism. It wasn't just motivation or fear of Hell. Suddenly I was aware that other people had feelings, I could feel their suffering, could weep for them, feel tremendous sorrow for those I've hurt, and it was so much more than motivation from what I read.

Indescribable "graces" and heart changing experiences came to me in prayer. Most prayers didn't produce anything like this but the ones that did were extremely powerful. Maybe something other than Catholicism, prayer, and Faith in God would have achieved the same results but I don't know what that is.

Maybe falling in love with a REALLY awesome, noble hearted, charitable, and wise woman would achieve these results and more. Im guessing so but have really not had any deep friendship or love affair with or received wise counsel from such a person, so I don't know.

Women have the power to change me for better or for worse even if they have a boyfriend or husband and I'm just their friend or emotional tampon. I think the right girl could totally change my heart, but most of that is theoretical.
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29-07-2014, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2014 12:09 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
(29-07-2014 02:05 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  By saying that you might be in prison right now if it weren't for a delusion you have in your mind is fairly serious. You would harm other people, perhaps steal or break other laws, knowing full well what the consequences would be if it weren't for imaginary consequences that you believed might happen if you didn't believe that a fictional character was responsible for saving you from an imaginary god who wants to harm you for eternity.

Imaginary consequences kept you in check but the actual real consequences wouldn't stop you from harming others ? Do you have any morals ?

No it was the change of heart through graces while deeply in prayer, not dogma about some dude dying for my sins that was responsible for my transformation. Also, fear of Hell isn't what did it because fear is not he same thing as GENUINE compassion. DOGMA had nothing to do with it from what I can recall.
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29-07-2014, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2014 01:36 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
(28-07-2014 03:55 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Cool; what's with the whole institutionalised cannibalism thing they've got going?

Sorry, thought that was a rhetorical question.

In John 4:31-34 and Mt 16:5-12 which describe Jesus speaking about food in a symbolic or figurative way. The disciples interpret him to mean real food. Note how Jesus shows them in plain , unmistakable language that He is only speaking figuratively.

Compare this with Jn 6:51 Jesus says we must eat his flesh in order to have life. In Jn 6:52, the Jews interpret him literally. Jesus then repeats again in the clearest possible language that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life. "My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink", is not the language of symbolism.

Jesus tells us precisely what he meant by bread, he tells us he means by telling us clearly that the bread is his own flesh (verse 52), which we must eat in order to have eternal life. Jesus says, "my flesh" when discussing the Eucharist, he says "the flesh" when referring to the carnal man. This is the only time recorded in the New Testament that any of Jesus' disciples left him because they found a doctrine of his too hard to accept.

St. Paul in 1 Cor 11:27 "whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily sins against the body and blood of the Lord". In all four Last Supper accounts, Jesus tells us plainly that "this is my body" and "this is my blood". Never is there a hint that he is speaking symbolically. Until the Protestant reformation, Christians accepted the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

The famous Fathers and writers of the early Church such as St. Ignatius of Antioch (110 AD), St. Justin Martyr(150AD), St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons and pupil of St. Polycarp (195AD), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (350 AD), and many others have spoken about the Doctrine of the real prescence of Christ in the Eucharist. Christians have believed in the Eucharist for 2,000 years.

If that doesn't answer your question ask me more questions about the Eucharist if you have them. Do you want to have an explanation on the differences between the Dogma/tradition/practice of Holy Communion and Cannibalism?
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29-07-2014, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2014 01:36 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
Why are my posts turning up blank? Angry

Okay fixed it. Thanks Mods!
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29-07-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic
(29-07-2014 11:35 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  K impulse I liked some of what you said.

Actually nothing changed my heart like a conversion to Catholicism. It wasn't just motivation or fear of Hell. Suddenly I was aware that other people had feelings, I could feel their suffering, could weep for them, feel tremendous sorrow for those I've hurt, and it was so much more than motivation from what I read.

Indescribable "graces" and heart changing experiences came to me in prayer. Most prayers didn't produce anything like this but the ones that did were extremely powerful. Maybe something other than Catholicism, prayer, and Faith in God would have achieved the same results but I don't know what that is.

Maybe falling in love with a REALLY awesome, noble hearted, charitable, and wise woman would achieve these results and more. Im guessing so but have really not had any deep friendship or love affair with or received wise counsel from such a person, so I don't know.

Women have the power to change me for better or for worse even if they have a boyfriend or husband and I'm just their friend or emotional tampon. I think the right girl could totally change my heart, but most of that is theoretical.
I understand your perspective, but it is simply your perception. You are crediting religion for what you yourself did. When you pray, there is no one listening. But because you believe someone or something "hears" you, there can be a placebo effect which is probably what you perceived as graces. Maybe it even helped you to focus more on other people, their situations, and feelings than you had before. Religion was simply a catalyst that helped you do this and put you in touch with the goodness that you already have in you. You simply weren't practicing as much of that goodness before. But it was in you already. And think how much better it is that YOU did this, not some imaginary being pushing you along.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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29-07-2014, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2014 01:49 PM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
Thinking that I did it would make me proud because I've never seen a sociopathic punk have such an enormous transformation, and to think that I made that happen would make me feel special, and that would lead to pride or self-righteousness which is disgusting.

The other belief is more humble and don't have the certainty that it was just me. I don't think I'm capable of doing that.
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29-07-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic
There is nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself or feeling proud of your accomplishments as long as it doesn't become outright conceit or arrogance. It's religion that tells you it's "disgusting" - just one of the many faults with religion.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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29-07-2014, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 02:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ask A Catholic
(29-07-2014 01:40 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Thinking that I did it would make me proud because I've never seen a sociopathic punk have such an enormous transformation, and to think that I made that happen would make me feel special, and that would lead to pride or self-righteousness which is disgusting.

The other belief is more humble and don't have the certainty that it was just me. I don't think I'm capable of doing that.

Many many people change radially late in their teen years.
The gods have nothing to do with it.
All *religious experiences* are reproducible. They're chemicals in your brain. Nothing else. Oxytocin, and beta-endorphins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-endorphin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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