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03-02-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  And you think that I "need" atheism? That I need "help"? I'm sorry, I usually don't get pissed off, and am usually quite calm, but I find your last statement to be incredibly arrogant. It sounds like something you'd hear from a hardcore evangelist. Again, I am quite sorry for being so uncharitable towards you, but I hate it when someone thinks their ideology is better than others and if only the others could see it the way they do....

The fact that this struck a nerve, and it was intended to flesh you out, answers the question posed.
congradulations. You are growing.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-02-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:38 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  You trust your logic and rationality. I trust my primal gut.

I trust my primal gut to know how to use the tools it's created and refined.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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03-02-2012, 08:53 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:38 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:21 PM)free2011 Wrote:  Welcome Nagoda. I appreciate you opening yourself up to questions. Mine isn't unique but it is always something that bothers me. I believe in science because science makes claims based on evidence. It seems to me that the only evidence religious people have is their particular book of choice. True?

I would add to that I think faith in a deity is based on a very strong instinctual inclination that really cant at the moment be proven to be true or false. You trust your logic and rationality. I trust my primal gut. Both I think are valid positions to take, since both have served us incredibly well as a species in the past. Both have also proven to be horribly wrong. Yes, I will admit, I believe based on a hunch as I said in the above post, but, I think for me to deny that hunch, to deny my gut instinct on this matter, would be utter insanity for me personally. Ironicaly, for me to abandon that and become an atheist, seems incredibly irrational for me and I just can't bring myself to do it. I have tried to do it in the past, and man how I've wanted to not believe, and still do, but everytime I go there, the world never feels quite right to me and my gut screams at me that atheism is wrong. I'm sure you guys feel the same way about theism and I respect you guys for it.

That's where you lose me. It is illogical to trust instinct over evidence.

Which doctor would you choose:
1. "Nagoda, I have this odd feeling you have a brain tumor. I'm going to operate on you"
2. "Nagoda, I would like to run some scientific tests to determine if you have a brain tumor. If you do I will conduct further scientific tests to determine the best course of action"

.

.
I wasn't . . . until I was
I am . . . until I'm not
.
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03-02-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:46 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  And you think that I "need" atheism? That I need "help"? I'm sorry, I usually don't get pissed off, and am usually quite calm, but I find your last statement to be incredibly arrogant. It sounds like something you'd hear from a hardcore evangelist. Again, I am quite sorry for being so uncharitable towards you, but I hate it when someone thinks their ideology is better than others and if only the others could see it the way they do....

The fact that this struck a nerve, and it was intended to flesh you out, answers the question posed.
congradulations. You are growing.

Flesh or flush? I am always growing.
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03-02-2012, 08:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2012 09:01 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
I believe what Nagoda is trying to say is that he is an "intuitionist", which is an ethical position taken by some secular thinkers as well. There is some merit to this thinking. What you will likely find in atheist is mix of Kantians and Utilitarians, they are not much on “feeling that god doesn’t exist”, it is more if a progression in logic.

That said, you can believe anything you want, but not all beliefs are equal. That is not an ideological bias toward "belief" in atheism and is also not an arrogant position, but one of thoughtful discourse.
(03-02-2012 08:55 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:46 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  And you think that I "need" atheism? That I need "help"? I'm sorry, I usually don't get pissed off, and am usually quite calm, but I find your last statement to be incredibly arrogant. It sounds like something you'd hear from a hardcore evangelist. Again, I am quite sorry for being so uncharitable towards you, but I hate it when someone thinks their ideology is better than others and if only the others could see it the way they do....

The fact that this struck a nerve, and it was intended to flesh you out, answers the question posed.
congradulations. You are growing.

Flesh or flush? I am always growing.

Intended as said, but either way you have received your first taste of having your string pulled. Isn't this fun?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-02-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Nagoda, thanks for this service. Here's what I'd like to know - when a catholic priest forces a minor boy to have sex with him, do you consider it primarily an act of pedophilia, homosexuality or rape?
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03-02-2012, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2012 09:20 PM by Nagoda.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:53 PM)free2011 Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:38 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:21 PM)free2011 Wrote:  Welcome Nagoda. I appreciate you opening yourself up to questions. Mine isn't unique but it is always something that bothers me. I believe in science because science makes claims based on evidence. It seems to me that the only evidence religious people have is their particular book of choice. True?

I would add to that I think faith in a deity is based on a very strong instinctual inclination that really cant at the moment be proven to be true or false. You trust your logic and rationality. I trust my primal gut. Both I think are valid positions to take, since both have served us incredibly well as a species in the past. Both have also proven to be horribly wrong. Yes, I will admit, I believe based on a hunch as I said in the above post, but, I think for me to deny that hunch, to deny my gut instinct on this matter, would be utter insanity for me personally. Ironicaly, for me to abandon that and become an atheist, seems incredibly irrational for me and I just can't bring myself to do it. I have tried to do it in the past, and man how I've wanted to not believe, and still do, but everytime I go there, the world never feels quite right to me and my gut screams at me that atheism is wrong. I'm sure you guys feel the same way about theism and I respect you guys for it.

That's where you lose me. It is illogical to trust instinct over evidence.

Which doctor would you choose:
1. "Nagoda, I have this odd feeling you have a brain tumor. I'm going to operate on you"
2. "Nagoda, I would like to run some scientific tests to determine if you have a brain tumor. If you do I will conduct further scientific tests to determine the best course of action"

.

The second one, obviously.

Actually no I don't find it illogical at all, considering that you may in fact be missing important pieces of evidence. We have only been studying the origins of the universe for the last 100 years or so, probably less. We know so very little in my opinion. Also, I think where we fundamentally disagree is over the interpretation of scientific evidence in regards to the existence of the supernatural. To me, science has shown how it is POSSIBLE for God to not exist, not that it doesn't. Interpretation of things is involved just as much in science as it is religion. To me at least.
(03-02-2012 08:58 PM)Thomas Wrote:  I believe what Nagoda is trying to say is that he is an "intuitionist", which is an ethical position taken by some secular thinkers as well. There is some merit to this thinking. What you will likely find in atheist is mix of Kantians and Utilitarians, they are not much on “feeling that god doesn’t exist”, it is more if a progression in logic.

That said, you can believe anything you want, but not all beliefs are equal. That is not an ideological bias toward "belief" in atheism and is also not an arrogant position, but one of thoughtful discourse.
(03-02-2012 08:55 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:46 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  And you think that I "need" atheism? That I need "help"? I'm sorry, I usually don't get pissed off, and am usually quite calm, but I find your last statement to be incredibly arrogant. It sounds like something you'd hear from a hardcore evangelist. Again, I am quite sorry for being so uncharitable towards you, but I hate it when someone thinks their ideology is better than others and if only the others could see it the way they do....

The fact that this struck a nerve, and it was intended to flesh you out, answers the question posed.
congradulations. You are growing.

Flesh or flush? I am always growing.

Intended as said, but either way you have received your first taste of having your string pulled. Isn't this fun?

Thomas, when you articulate it like that, your position is fair. I apologize for any misgivings. And yes, it is quite fun!!!
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03-02-2012, 09:22 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 09:11 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Nagoda, thanks for this service. Here's what I'd like to know - when a catholic priest forces a minor boy to have sex with him, do you consider it primarily an act of pedophilia, homosexuality or rape?

I know I wasn't asked, so please excuse my out-of-turn answer.
There are several answers for this not listed:
"Business as usual"
"A transfer request"
"Journey to enlightenment"

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-02-2012, 09:23 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 09:11 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Nagoda, thanks for this service. Here's what I'd like to know - when a catholic priest forces a minor boy to have sex with him, do you consider it primarily an act of pedophilia, homosexuality or rape?

Rape. It's disgusting and wrong and shame on the Church for covering it up.

Although I have just as much of a problem when older gay men go after 15-16 year old boys. Oh and before you all ask, I'm bi.
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03-02-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 08:38 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  Perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut, I apologize.

No, no don't apologize. Keep it up! ... I like it, it's good. Smile

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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