Ask An Ex-Catholic/Buddhist/Ninja/Biblical Scholar!
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03-02-2012, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2012 11:19 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 10:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ah, yes, now that you mention it. My ex-wife had the same belief that she was a Catholic and the Church was wrong. I still don't understand the logic.

Could be why she's your ex-wife. You were intolerant.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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03-02-2012, 11:40 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 11:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 10:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ah, yes, now that you mention it. My ex-wife had the same belief that she was a Catholic and the Church was wrong. I still don't understand the logic.

Could be why she's your ex-wife. You were intolerant.

Don't forget Terse and Deadly. Tongue

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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04-02-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(03-02-2012 11:40 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 11:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 10:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ah, yes, now that you mention it. My ex-wife had the same belief that she was a Catholic and the Church was wrong. I still don't understand the logic.

Could be why she's your ex-wife. You were intolerant.

Don't forget Terse and Deadly. Tongue


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04-02-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
What is your opinion on the Bible?

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04-02-2012, 09:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 09:13 AM by N.E.OhioAtheist.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
How can the church put a Nazi in power? Why did they go with Hitler? Why did they close their eyes to the Holocaust? When will a Bishop be charged with child molestation. When will the cardinals be charged with child molestation? Why does the pope hide them???
By the way i was raised Catholic! I went to mass 3 times a week. My father was a nut job on the church.
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04-02-2012, 09:18 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Ooh, I want to! Here's my 10 Questions from a not-Catholic raised Catholic and considered Ethnically Catholic in a very Catholic country:

1. If the church can be wrong about homosexuality, might it not also be wrong on heaven, hell, and all the things you need to do to get there?
2. If the church gets its idea about homosexuality from the bible, does this mean the bible is wrong? And if it is wrong about this, does it not follow that it may well be wrong about other things?
3. Do you believe in exorcism? Does it follow that you do/do not believe in angels and demons?
4. Do you believe the pope is infallible and god's vicar on earth (or something to that extent)?
5. Do you believe that a wafer really becomes the body of christ at the eucharist, and that wine becomes his blood?
6. Do you believe that humans have souls but animals don't?
7. Do you believe that there is such a thing as an unforgivable sin?
8. Do you go to confession? And do you believe that if you die in a state of sin you will go to hell?
9. Do you believe that baptising babies saves their souls?
10. If you answered no to most of those questions, then how do you justify calling yourself a catholic? What makes you a Catholic as opposed to any other flavour of Christianity?

Many thanks Nagoda. Hope none of this was in any way offensive to you or your religion.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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04-02-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 09:06 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  How can the church put a Nazi in power? Why did they go with Hitler? Why did they close their eyes to the Holocaust? When will a Bishop be charged with child molestation. When will the cardinals be charged with child molestation? Why does the pope hide them???
By the way i was raised Catholic! I went to mass 3 times a week. My father was a nut job on the church.

If the Church put Hitler in power, that's the first I've heard of it. From what little I understand on the subject, and this area of history is not my strong point so keep that in mind, they gave support to Hitler very early on, I think before he may have started the Holocaust, because he promsied he would protect Catholics in Germany, or something like that. When he failed to do this and in fact did the opposite, the Church withdrew their support and Pius XII attempted to do a long distance exorcism on him, which obviously failed. As to closing their eyes to the Holocaust, while many Church officials in germany may have supported Hitlier, from what I understand more documentation has surfaced showing that Pius XII did everything he could to help the Jews. The cries of he could have done more are unrealistic to me, the Pope was in a very difficult position and did what he could, with Italy and Mousallini right on his doorstep. More and more Jewish groups I think are in fact recognizing this and it is well known that Hitler was planning to take over the Vatican, had he the chance. Documents have in fact surfaced recently that the Vatican actually had a back up plan if that were to happen: the Pope would step down and the Church would be moved to a neutral nation and a new man declared Pope.

As to whenever a Bishop or Cardinal will ever be charged, the answer is when the corrupt men who run the Roman Curia are ousted and some honest good men put in their place. So probably not for a long time. As to the Pope, its a difficult case with him as their seems to be conflicting evidence: on the one hand it appears he hushed a lot of this up when he was Prefect for the CDF (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, aka the Inquisition), on the other he also is the one responsible for instituting reforms to make sure the cases for abusive priests are dealt with swiftly in church tribunals when he was Prefect and I've seen minutes to Curia meetings where his reaction to one of these cases is that he was absolutely appalled by what had happened and that the case should be dealt with swiftly. So his actions seem to contradict themselves, I'm not sure what to make of it personally. As to why he turned a blind eye and went all hush hush (as Prefect for the CDF he would have certainly been made aware of these cases, I mean nothing gets past those guys, they're the gatekeepers of the Vatican pretty much to my understanding), you try getting the head of the Inquisition, which views itself as infallible, to try admitting it screwed up and see how far you get.
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04-02-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
The pope was a Hitler youth! Yet he now is the Pope???? Go figure! This the church that wanted to do so much for the Jews. The Pope said Mussolini was a blessing to the church. Hitler based his start off what Mussolini did with the Fascist party. Hitler only went farther than him. All was done under the nose of the church. I guess self preservation of the church is more important than morals. Where was the faith at? If they believed God was on their side the church would get through it. It's a total crock of bullshit. Power corrupts and the asshole pope was a corrupt bastard. The whole church is corrupt. It has started with lies and deceit and it has never stopped. From the early church to now they are corrupt and should be torn down. They should send all the people in charge of that church on trial. Send everyone to prison for the crimes against humanity. The church is the most screwed up and intolerant group ever. They are equal to the Taliban.
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04-02-2012, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 12:10 PM by Nagoda.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 09:18 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  Ooh, I want to! Here's my 10 Questions from a not-Catholic raised Catholic and considered Ethnically Catholic in a very Catholic country:

1. If the church can be wrong about homosexuality, might it not also be wrong on heaven, hell, and all the things you need to do to get there?

Yes, it's certainly possible. I don't like to admit that, but at least I should be honest with myself that it is.

2. If the church gets its idea about homosexuality from the bible, does this mean the bible is wrong? And if it is wrong about this, does it not follow that it may well be wrong about other things?

The Church gets its idea about homosexuality from what I would argue is a minsinterpretation of the text's social and historical context. You take the infamous leviticus 18 passage for instance: what does it mean to "lie with a man AS WITH a woman"? Of course this is physically impossible, so how is one to interpret this? The best answer I heard was from one of my Biblical Studies professors, that this in fact referred to not the physical sense but the gender roles that get taken on during anal sex between two men (we're all adults here right?). My Prof. argued, and I agree with him, that the authors of Leviticus (who are mostly likely of the priestly class) view anal sex between two men as wrong because the bottom is submissive and thus in the view of the text subverts gender roles and boundaries and becomes "a woman", hence with the as with a woman thing. Leviticus as a text is very concerned about boundaries, whether they are social ones or physical ones within the Israelite camp. And so anal sex between two men is wrong according to the Bible, because it subverts the gender roles which God has defined and put forth. The Hebrew Bible is not against a loving relationship between two men, oral sex or mutual masturbation, and nowhere does it condemn lesbianism. In regards to sodom and gehmorrah, I think what is being condemned in that text is not that the men wanted to have sex with another man, but that they were planning to GANG RAPE an angel, who is seen as God's representative, and I think the wickedness that is mentioned in the text is likely a condemnation of the rape and promiscuity that was running around the city and not of homosexual relationships. For examples of possible same sex relationships in the Hebrew Bible that may be seen as okay by the text, look at the stories of David and Jonathan or Ruth and Naomi. This doesn't mean I agree with the HB views on male anal sex, but I think this is the correct way of interpreting that text.

As for the New Testament, scholarship has argued that what Paul is referring to in Romans 1 is temple prostitution and not a general condemnation of homosexuality. Also, his condemnations in corinthians refer specifically to pedophilic relationships (the word which the text uses is cadamite, not sodomite as its mistranslated) found in Greco Roman culture where older men would often have sex with young boys who were there students/servants. Basically you went to an older man for education , usually sent there by your family, and he got certain "benefits" in return. This was a common practice to my understanding.

So what we have here are condemnations of at worst male anal sex for reasons of gender bending, but also condemnations of pedophilia and what is likely a reference to at the very least orgies or even temple prostitution. No where does the Bible, I would argue, based on the social and historical contexts of the texts, condemn a loving relationship between two men or two women.

As to whether the Bible is wrong and can it be wrong about other things, it often frequently is especially in regards to science. See Joshua making the SUN STOP in Judges.It is in fact the Catholic view and Orthodox view that the Bible contradicts itself very often and not everything within it is inerrant or infallible. The Bible for us is not the Word of God, but the Word of God is in the Bible. So not everything is the Word of God, lot of it is man's word too. And that means the text is just plain wrong a lot of the time. If you expect a bunch of homo sapiens to interpret what God is saying to them correctly 100% of the time, you've got another thing coming.


3. Do you believe in exorcism? Does it follow that you do/do not believe in angels and demons?

I do believe in exorcism and angels and demons yes. I do however think that demonic possession is very very VERY rare and that it is and was back in Jesus' day confused with things like epilepsy and mental disorders. The Church is in fact incredibly careful when dealing with claims of possession, and so before it brings in a priest it follows the scientific method of trying to determine whether the cause is natural or not first by consulting medical and psychiatric authorities first and getting their diagnoses before they do anything else.

4. Do you believe the pope is infallible and god's vicar on earth (or something to that extent)?

No, I don't believe the pope is infallible. Whether or not he is in fact Vicar of Christ, which was a later medieval development, is actually a point of debate between Orthdox and Catholics. The Orthodox consider him to be Peter's vicar, not Christ's. At the very least I believe that the Pope is Peter's successor and the Church's universal leader, but I don't think he needs to be Roman Catholic or Bishop of Rome. I view the Church in a much more inclusive sense than most and include the Eastern, Russian Orthdox and Anglicans in there. I don't necessarily view myself as a Roman Catholic persay any more, but as a Catholic who worships in the Roman manner. To me, the Orthodox and Anglicans are just as much Catholics as the Romans are.

5. Do you believe that a wafer really becomes the body of christ at the eucharist, and that wine becomes his blood?

I don't believe it becomes his body and blood in physical form, but I do believe it becomes his body and blood in spiritual form, the state in which he was according to the book of Hebrews between death and Ressurection. And even with the ressurection, it is not a case of his body coming back to life and Jesus is a zombie. This is in fact innacurate. What has in fact taken place, according to the Ancient Greek of the text (of which I can read very very little but have studied scholarship on this issue), is that Jesus' old body has been repalced with a new one that is part physical and part spirit. You could even go on to say, as the Pope has suggested, that Jesus has "evolved" into some spirit-human hybrid of sorts.

But getting back to the question, I believe I receive his spiritual body and blood, but whatever way you shake it, I definitely believe that Jesus is fully present spiritually in the Eucharist, and thus I do subscribe to a theology of Real Presence.

6. Do you believe that humans have souls but animals don't?

No I believe its possible for animals to have souls.

7. Do you believe that there is such a thing as an unforgivable sin?

Yes, it's called not letting God forgive you.

8. Do you go to confession? And do you believe that if you die in a state of sin you will go to hell?

I go to confession regularly. And no I don't believe that if you die in a state of sin you will go to Hell necessarily. I believe God to be far more merciful than most make him out to be, and so I trust in that.

9. Do you believe that baptising babies saves their souls?

Initially yes, but I agree with the Church teaching that as adults they can reject and lose (and also regain) their salvation later on in their lives as adults.

10. If you answered no to most of those questions, then how do you justify calling yourself a catholic? What makes you a Catholic as opposed to any other flavour of Christianity?

What makes me a Catholic is my belief in the Eucharist, that jesus really is in that bread and wine no matter how you slice it, and that the Pope is the leader of the Church, even though I don't believe him to be infallible. But the neither do the Orthodox, but they're considered Catholic by the RCC too.

Many thanks Nagoda. Hope none of this was in any way offensive to you or your religion.

None taken.


(04-02-2012 11:14 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  The pope was a Hitler youth! Yet he now is the Pope???? Go figure! This the church that wanted to do so much for the Jews. The Pope said Mussolini was a blessing to the church. Hitler based his start off what Mussolini did with the Fascist party. Hitler only went farther than him. All was done under the nose of the church. I guess self preservation of the church is more important than morals. Where was the faith at? If they believed God was on their side the church would get through it. It's a total crock of bullshit. Power corrupts and the asshole pope was a corrupt bastard. The whole church is corrupt. It has started with lies and deceit and it has never stopped. From the early church to now they are corrupt and should be torn down. They should send all the people in charge of that church on trial. Send everyone to prison for the crimes against humanity. The church is the most screwed up and intolerant group ever. They are equal to the Taliban.

The Pope was a Hitler youth and HATED it and got out as soon as he could and hated Hitler and everything he stood for. Please, read up on that if you want. As to the Mousillini quote, first I've heard of it. Could you give em the date for that? It sounds like something that may have been said early on. To say the Pope was a corrupt bastard is conjecture, opinion and not based on any fact that you've presented. To say the entire Church is corrupt is a generalization and is not true. If that were true you wouldn't have the hundreds and thousands of good priests and bishops fighting against the tyranny of the Curia. Even though the men who call the shots are corrupt for the most part, I still believe the Church can be saved. I believe the American political system to be corrupt (I'm Canadian), does that mean you abandon the Republic entirely? No, you stay and fight. I believe the same with the Church, because unlike many, I see the good in her and believe she's worth saving. Luke never gave up on Vader, I don't give up on my Church.

Please explain to me how the Church started with lies and deceit. If you are referring to conspiracy theories that the apostles were running a scam or that paul was scamming people, you will find that these views are on the fringes of scholarship and most scholars worth their salt don't give credence to them, that includes a big chunk of them who are athiest. I don't think a bunch of fishermen who were likely between the ages of 13-20 (didn't think about that did you? The apostles are essentially teenagers, Jesus is traditionally held to be about in his mid 30s which for those days was really freaking OLD) and very likely illiterate could pull off a Ponzi scheme even if they wanted to. If you are referring to the whole Constantine started it all, again that's BS. Constantine was actually warned by the Bishops to not consolidate power and make Christianity the official religion of the empire out of fear of corruption, this I know because I have read up on it and studied it, although the source escapes me at the moment, so I apologize for the fact that will look incredibly convenient, but I am being honest here. That, and the early Church existed way before Constantine in Rome and what was considered the East.

So please, tell me about the lies and deceit that the early church started with. I'd love to hear about it.

As to the Church being equal to the Taliban, you're about a few hundred years too late. I would have agreed with you if this was the medieval period, but considering that the modern Church in fact has stopped killing people and now speaks out against it vehemently, no they are no where near as bad as the Taliban. Once upon a time maybe, but thankfuly they've changed. Your comparison is ludicrous, although possibly a wonderful example of hyperbole, and your charges seem to be sweeping generalizations without citing any facts to back them up. Heck I'm not even asking for book pages and web links here. At least I admitted that I couldn't remember my source for the Constantine thing! C'mon man, you're an ATHEIST for the Spaghetti Monster's sake, you're supposed to do better than this!!
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04-02-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
WE had a discussion about Hitler just last week. did no one read my post. The Catholic church supported Hitler in 1933. when almost everyone supported him. In the words of William Lyon Mackenzie King, Canada's longest serving Prime Minister (22 years) "Hitler is a simple person who truly loves his fellow man". Also in 1937 The pope formally renounced support of Hitler with the bull Mit brenneder sorge.

In terms of the Catholic church and its sex scandal, it is blown way out of proportion by the media. less than 4% of priests and deacons in the united states have been accused And in those 4000 or so priests about 1/3 of the cases were credible and 1/3 were substantiated. the other 1/3 were either unsubstantiated or non credible. This is below the average for both secular and other christian institutions. In a study of 61 California newspapers there were over 2000 articles about catholic sex abuse. but only 4 articles on the much larger and ongoing public school sex abuse. I also don't think that the church hides its priests as the church has paid out 2.6 billion dollars in the US to victims of child abuse. this has bankrupted several diocese

Also only 6% of priests were pedophiles in the strict definition of the term. 32% were ephebophiles (which is 15-19 (I love how there is a red line under that word and one of the options is pedophile)) 15% 11-12 and 20% indiscriminate and 27% mildly in discriminant.

Also several priest have served time in jail and have been defrocked or put into isolation. so this tells me that there is no immunity for priests and they do get punished.

I am a traditionalist Catholic and agree with most of the doctrine of the church.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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