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04-02-2012, 05:11 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 04:55 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 03:17 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  To say that a method created by biased fallible humans is not biased in the slightest is like saying the Pope is Infallible: it's simply makes NO SENSE.

The scientific method is unbiased. It has no viewpoint, it is neutral.

It is simply about examining the evidence and drawing a conclusion based on the facts that have been examined.

If the scientific method is biased, it defeats the whole purpose of its existence.

Then its purpose is defeated. The method is based on the core assumptions of Scientific Naturalism, which is biased towards natural explanations. To assume a method unbiased is impossible. Even if the method itself were objective, it is still being used and interpreted by someone who is not. Therefore while you can argue for a theoretical objectivity, any objectivity the method had, which of course it never had because it was constructed by unobjective humans, is lost in its application and the interpretation of the evidence, which will be skewed towards the viewpoint of the interpreter.

True objectivity as you are claiming, in my opinion, is not only impossible, it doesn't exist.
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04-02-2012, 05:14 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Mathematics.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-02-2012, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 05:16 PM by Nagoda.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:03 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Joe Ratzinger is taking the church back to its roots of anti-Jew and pro-christian-fascism. He has made the claim that Hitler was a secular dictator and is an example of what a secular world would look like. He didn't do himself a favor saying this. As we know Hitler was Roman Catholic, not to say this is why he murdered 6 million Jews, but give me the alternate reason.

The Catholic church is set for the long-run. If all the parishioners walked away tomorrow they have the funds to live out their lives in decent comfort. Near my home they are building a massive priest retirement complex that looks like a city from the highway. They are not building churches to the likes of this.

I suspect they see the end coming. European Christian church attendance is way down and the young are not attending as all. In the US they are growing at around 1% and this is from Mexican Catholic immigrants. I started as a catholic and in my family of 27 grandchildren, 3 go to church. Of those their spouses are secular and so are the kids. The line ends in my family completely.

Is it the death of an era? Sure appears so.

BUT in America the fight is really with the Born-Agains. They are the ones who polled at only 5% believing evolution is true. They are the ones who believe around 80% that Jesus is returning in their lifetime. They are the literalists who believe homosexuals and atheists should be executed. You know them as they have the Rapture bumper sticker. As them if you can have their stuff when they rapture up and they will take you seriously.

How can the Church's roots be anti-semetic when the first Christians were Jewish, founded by a Jew, and pro fascist when the first community was set up something akin to a commune? And when debate was prized and loved in the first few centuries of the early church?
(04-02-2012 05:14 PM)kim Wrote:  Mathematics.

Okay I must ask: WTF? Care to explain?
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04-02-2012, 05:25 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:11 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  Then its purpose is defeated. The method is based on the core assumptions of Scientific Naturalism, which is biased towards natural explanations. To assume a method unbiased is impossible. Even if the method itself were objective, it is still being used and interpreted by someone who is not. Therefore while you can argue for a theoretical objectivity, any objectivity the method had, which of course it never had because it was constructed by unobjective humans, is lost in its application and the interpretation of the evidence, which will be skewed towards the viewpoint of the interpreter.

True objectivity as you are claiming, in my opinion, is not only impossible, it doesn't exist.

It is designed to minimize any bias the one carrying out the experiments has. It provides an objective, standardized approach for conducting experiments. And due to peer review any bias can successfully be eliminated.

Behold the power of the force!
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04-02-2012, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 06:04 PM by kim.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:15 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 05:14 PM)kim Wrote:  Mathematics.

Okay I must ask: WTF? Care to explain?

Quote:True objectivity as you are claiming, in my opinion, is not only impossible, it doesn't exist.

Mathematics is an empirical science. It is objective.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-02-2012, 05:33 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:15 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  How can the Church's roots be anti-semetic when the first Christians were Jewish, founded by a Jew, and pro fascist when the first community was set up something akin to a commune? And when debate was prized and loved in the first few centuries of the early church?

You actually don't know the anti-Semitic history of the Catholic Church?
WELL THEN, let's have a history lesson.

When Christianity was invented around 315 AD as the Bishops got the ok from Emperor Constantine. The Presbyters were forced in and all other religions were made illegal. Two groups stood against the religiously consolidation of Constantine, the Jews and the Druids. The Druids were fooled into meeting with the Romans and were completley massacred. The Jews were more wide spread and took off. The Romans sought out every Torah and Jewish temple in Europe and destroyed everything they could. Why burn the all Torahs? They contained the truth about Rabi Yashwa and Rabi Judas.

A very long story short, the bible is a fabricated collection of all the ancient sun worshiping religions of the Mediterranean. This is why the Catholics want to eliminate the Jews. Not because they killed Jesus, but because they know he was no messiah. He was a Rabi who got himself killed trying to start a rebellion against the Romans. Probably a great man along the lines of Martin Luther King and Gandhi, but not the son of God.

As Paul Harvey used to say, "Now you know the rest of the story".

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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04-02-2012, 05:59 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:11 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 04:55 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 03:17 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  To say that a method created by biased fallible humans is not biased in the slightest is like saying the Pope is Infallible: it's simply makes NO SENSE.

The scientific method is unbiased. It has no viewpoint, it is neutral.

It is simply about examining the evidence and drawing a conclusion based on the facts that have been examined.

If the scientific method is biased, it defeats the whole purpose of its existence.

Then its purpose is defeated. The method is based on the core assumptions of Scientific Naturalism, which is biased towards natural explanations. To assume a method unbiased is impossible. Even if the method itself were objective, it is still being used and interpreted by someone who is not. Therefore while you can argue for a theoretical objectivity, any objectivity the method had, which of course it never had because it was constructed by unobjective humans, is lost in its application and the interpretation of the evidence, which will be skewed towards the viewpoint of the interpreter.

True objectivity as you are claiming, in my opinion, is not only impossible, it doesn't exist.

While we can bat around concepts of bias and objectivity, whether we can eliminate one and achieve the other, we will go on using the scientific method to increase our understanding of the universe.

In that context, the scientific method works, nothing else does.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2012, 06:29 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 05:33 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 05:15 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  How can the Church's roots be anti-semetic when the first Christians were Jewish, founded by a Jew, and pro fascist when the first community was set up something akin to a commune? And when debate was prized and loved in the first few centuries of the early church?

You actually don't know the anti-Semitic history of the Catholic Church?
WELL THEN, let's have a history lesson.

When Christianity was invented around 315 AD as the Bishops got the ok from Emperor Constantine. The Presbyters were forced in and all other religions were made illegal. Two groups stood against the religiously consolidation of Constantine, the Jews and the Druids. The Druids were fooled into meeting with the Romans and were completley massacred. The Jews were more wide spread and took off. The Romans sought out every Torah and Jewish temple in Europe and destroyed everything they could. Why burn the all Torahs? They contained the truth about Rabi Yashwa and Rabi Judas.

A very long story short, the bible is a fabricated collection of all the ancient sun worshiping religions of the Mediterranean. This is why the Catholics want to eliminate the Jews. Not because they killed Jesus, but because they know he was no messiah. He was a Rabi who got himself killed trying to start a rebellion against the Romans. Probably a great man along the lines of Martin Luther King and Gandhi, but not the son of God.

As Paul Harvey used to say, "Now you know the rest of the story".

Uh huh the Catholic Church is trying to exterminate the Jews.... and the Vatican has a giant sueprcomputer with the name of every Protestant underground. Have you been reading Jack chick by chance? A lot of what you say sounds taken from his Alberto comics which make ludicrous claims and have generally been torn to shreds by lots of folks.

But no I'm quite aware of the history: when I say roots, I mean first century Palestine. You know, the time and georgraphic location that is accepted as the origin of the early Church by most scholars worth their salt?

Christianity existed in both Gentile and Jewish forms before 315 CE. To say the Bishops invented Christianity is false, there were massive debates and chaos going on at the time. The Proto-Orthodox branch of Christianity wanted some stability and decided to codify its beliefs and cannon. If you have issue with this, then you can blame the Jews for codifying the Torah and leaving out such wonderful texts as the Book of Jasher, which we have no copy of. To be fair, if youre going to criticize the Bible for borrowing from other near eastern religions then you're going to have to go after the near eastern religions who stole just as much from each other. Its called Syncretism and actually now that I think about it, the Canaanites stole their pantheon from the Sumerians and also when the Hyksos were rulers of Egypt they identified their Canaanite deities with Egyptian ones. And the Romans stole from the greeks and the greek deities are likely archtypes based off the sumerian pantheon. Everyone stole from everyone else, Christianity and Judaism are no different. Paganism by your definition is just as guilty.

Oh and to say that all the religions in the near east worshipped the sun is a huge mistake. Greeks and Romans did not worship the sun primarily, nor did the Canaanites or the Sumerians. The Sky God/Storm God was the head of the pantheon, hence why they all have a bearded dude up in the sky on top of a damn mountain.
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04-02-2012, 06:45 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
In suggesting the scientific method to be biased towards naturalism do you disregard the large number of religious scientists? You are to an extent making science out to be something atheistic. While science itself is not theistic in any way it is not a tool used by any sort of biased group. Such as an anti-theism tool. Yes many things are atheistic because many things have nothing to do with religion.

If there is a bias towards naturalism wouldn't the religious scientists work to deal with this bias and answer it? There is no certain criteria to who is able to test and define scientific proofs, so whoever wants to can try to prove or disprove something for whatever reason they see. While humans are biased they are not all identically biased. Many humans see their own species as somehow superior, but guess what there are those who find it equal or even inferior. Each viewpoint can run the same sort of test to find an objective answer which whether or not it agrees with all of them can often be found to be true despite their desired view.

Yes "fringe" science is not well received within most academic groups, but they are not only scorned by an atheistic scientific regime. Plenty of religious people join in the disbelief of the proofs the many "fringe" sciences have offered. If you are trying to suggest that metaphysics is not well represented understand that the reasoning behind this is that while it's existed for a very long time it has failed to prove much of anything that it suggests. For many metaphysical problems a better answer came and that is why it is no longer a very highly respected field within academics.

That someone on here is discussing science this or that is not really suggesting that their whole worldview is based on science, it's just that most rational people in this age have decided to stand by many large evidential factors.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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05-02-2012, 01:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2012 01:25 AM by TarzanSmith.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
I agree that the Scientific method is not biased but we must remember that the scientist is

Also at Ohioatheist you do realize you've insulted a group of people without actually knowing anything about them. And I'm not talking about Catholics. There is nothing to signify that the Masons are in anyway evil at least not in the present day and one of my favourite authors is a mason, Jack Whyte. And another point is that on the contrary the catholic church is the only religious group that specifically, under pain of excommunication, bans the joining of the Freemasons. You're thinking of the Anglican church of which a significant number of Bishops are members.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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