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05-02-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Hitler and the church! I kept this just to remind me about people that say Hitler was NOT a Christian or a Roman Catholic to be exact.


This week, we've talked quite a bit about tactics that the religious use against atheists in a debate. One of the most inflammatory charges of the believer is that Hitler was an atheist, and the influences of Darwin were responsible for Hitler's atrocities in the mid-20th century. I heard this very argument from my theist mother.
A (German) friend and page fan has experience with this subject. She asked for permission to correct the record on Hitler, and to give ammunition to the rest of us in our conversations with those who insist on punching the Hitler hot-button.
Meg's blog is below. It's a bit long, but it's a compelling read. I hope it helps someone out there. I know it will help me. (Thanks, girl.)
Seth
___________________________

Adolf Hitler: The World's Most Infamous Creationist
by FB fan - Meg
If you haven't heard the Hitler arguments from a theist yet, I think it's safe to assume that you are in the minority. Here's a brief rundown of the most common accusations that the faithful enjoy slinging about der Führer in case you're not familiar with them:
1) Hitler was an atheist
2) Hitler was a faithful Darwinist
3) It was Darwin's ideals that drove Hitler to exterminate the Jews
Most atheists are aware that Hitler considered himself a Christian, a Roman Catholic to be precise, and know that the accusation of him being an atheist are as patently false as they are absurd. What many do not know is that Hitler was also a Creationist.
Yes, Hitler was a Creationist. And before the hypersensitive and pedantic among you get your fingers busy typing about how that doesn't mean all Creationists are evil or that Creationism leads to Nazism; thanks, I'm well-aware of that fact and that's not why I'm mentioning Hitler's beliefs. So take a deep breath, calm down, and enjoy the rest of this post, which is going to give you some helpful ammunition for shooting down the Hitler-Atheism myths.
Nearly a decade ago, I married a German and moved with him from America to Germany. And one of the first things I learned here, besides that there are people on this planet who consider beer an acceptable breakfast beverage, is that no matter how rotten and depraved the actions of the Third Reich appeared when we were taught about them in school and via the US media, the picture we get is still a sterilized version of Nazis' barbarity and beliefs.
As it turns out, the family I married into has a Nazi history, an unpleasant surprise as my (now ex) husband was anything but racist or antisemitic.
My former father-in-law, a highly intelligent person, speaks nearly perfect English, which he learned after being taken prisoner by Allied Forces in France and then shipped off to a work camp in Colorado. He never spoke about his Nazi upbringing and the war with his children and, given that the man has all the warmth and compassion of an iceberg, to his family it was obvious that they were not to mention it.
Then one Christmas when the old man had been hitting the schnapps, and shortly after I had been to visit a former concentration camp, Dachau, I couldn't stand not knowing anymore how anyone could support Hitler, much less be willing to fight for him. So I took advantage of father-in-law's inebriated state and asked.
You could have heard the proverbial pin drop; everyone fell silent.
The old man glared at me and stood up, growled at me to stay there in my seat, then left the room. I assumed he'd gone off to get something, and I knew it could take awhile for him to return. The home of my former parents-in-law is like a museum, complete with a basement full of archives.
As one might expect from people raised during the reign of the Third Reich, which had the organization necessary to round up many millions of people and exterminate them with astonishing efficiency, everything my parents-in-law did was recorded and filed, the belongings not needed for their daily lives never thrown away, and instead neatly stored and organized.
These people could tell you how much they spent on bread in April, 1952. That's not an exaggeration. So I shouldn't have been too surprised when the old man reappeared with large boxes and photo albums, and to find them stuffed with Nazi memorabilia, pamphlets, sew-on patches earned during father-in-law's time with the Nazi version of the Boy Scouts, the Hitler Youth, booklets on how being a good Nazi and being a good Christian were one and the same and the virtues of the Nazi policy of "Positive Christianity", photos of father-in-law in his Nazi uniform taken at Church...
One got the impression that my father-in-law had been waiting his whole life for someone to finally ask him about his past, to give him reason to talk about it. And talk he did, for hours...
I was still a Christian at the time, and I had never given any real thought to Hitler and his own religious beliefs, though if I had done so the last thing I would have considered him was Christian. And the last thing I wanted to admit to myself was that Hitler had been a devout Christian.
But there was a pile of evidence staring me in the face and my father-in-law enthusiastically showing me through it. In his own words, Hitler believed...
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them."
-Hitler in a speech on April 12, 1922.
Hitler made similar remarks in his book, "Mein Kampf", which was written when he was young. So he must have changed his mind and lost sight of his faith later, right?
"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has
been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
No, that isn't from a modern day, Republican speech; that's what Hitler said in a statement in 1933.
And even more surprising was the Nazi banned book list; Darwin's "On the Origins of Species" and any book deemed to support evolution it were on it.
"The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator."
"The fox remains always a fox, the goose remains a goose, and the tiger will retain the character of a tiger."
Nope, those aren't quotes from Ray Comfort or Kent Hovind as one might understandably assume; Hitler said those things in his book, "Mein Kampf."
As a Christian, I still had no trouble incorporating evolution into my beliefs; I saw evolution as God's method of producing all of the species we see on Earth.
To me, Darwin's book being on the banned list didn't make any sense.
What about the Nazi breeding programs? That's about evolution, isn't it?
Well, no. Hitler's program didn't involve evolution. As my father-in-law explained, Hitler prescribed to a belief called Eugenics, which is breeding for a superior (Aryan) race.
If you're familiar with evolution and how it works, you realize that Eugenics is the exact opposite of evolution.
In evolution, the larger and more dynamic the gene pool, the better.
The more genetic diversity you have, the less likely a disease or a gene defect is going to wipe out the entire species. More genes = more likely to adapt and survive. And evolution is not a ladder; there is no end goal, no perfect being, only a being well-suited for its current living environment.
In Eugenics, the aim is to breed a "superior" version of a species; to lessen genetic diversity in favor of traits deemed to be preferable.
Purebred dogs are an example of why Eugenics is a really bad idea and how it runs contrary to evolution. The Rhodesian Ridgeback is thought to be superior when it has an especially large ridge on its back. Due to breeders selecting animals for their ridges, it's not uncommon now for the dogs to be born with ridges so large that they develop open canals that lead from the surface of their skin straight to their spinal column, resulting in a horribly painful, open wound directly on their bare spine.
"From where do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump , as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today."
- Hitler in his book "Tischgespräche"
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."
- from a speech Hitler gave on April 26, 1933.
Did I mention that school prayer was mandatory under the Nazis? If I wanted to commit the logical fallacy of guilt by association comparing Hitler's beliefs in a Christian nation, family values, creationism, and school prayer to America's modern Religious Right, this would be an ideal opportunity for it. But that would bring me down to their level. Oops. Guess I already drew the parallels. Oh well.
In his own words, Hitler was a devout Christian and he was a Creationist.
"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties."
- Hitler in his book "Mein Kampf"
So the next time someone wants to equate you, as an atheist, with Hitler, I invite you to share Hitler's actual beliefs with them. Then just sit back and relax as the faithful endure spastic mental gymnastics trying to spin it all.
Looking back on that discussion with my father-in-law, considering the information I've gathered about Hitler myself since becoming fluent in German, and combined with my loss of faith, I'm actually not surprised anymore that Hitler was a Christian and a Creationist. If someone is delusional enough to think they're on a mission from God to commit genocide, it isn't much of a stretch for them to be delusional enough to believe that Adam and Eve probably saddled up a triceratops when they had to make long journeys, is it?
So why aren't we told about Hitler's enthusiasm for Jesus in America? After all, it's common knowledge in Europe. Funny how there's little to no mention of Hitler's religious beliefs in the average school curriculum or documentary, while we learn at length about Hitler's other beliefs.
Economics and politics played huge roles in the Nazis coming to power.
But so did religion. Anyone who denies or ignores that fact is enabling a repeat.
Finally, the faithful might argue that Hitler was not a real Christian. Although the average German, including my former father-in-law, himself a Christian, will readily tell you that Hitler was. And given Hitler's statements, I think it's safe to assume he would argue that he most certainly was a Christian, and that's the important aspect. Because whether Hitler was a Christian in someone else's view or according to their definition is beside the point; the point is that, as someone who believed in a god, Hitler was not an atheist.
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05-02-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(04-02-2012 06:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  Oh and to say that all the religions in the near east worshipped the sun is a huge mistake. Greeks and Romans did not worship the sun primarily, nor did the Canaanites or the Sumerians. The Sky God/Storm God was the head of the pantheon, hence why they all have a bearded dude up in the sky on top of a damn mountain.

"Greeks and Romans did not worship the sun primarily" OH yes they did!

Sun gods:
Apollo, Ra, Sol Invictus, Mithrus, Helios, Arinna
Just to name a few in the Med area. You also have the same basis all over the world. All modern religions (Christian, Judaism, Islam) derive from sun worshiping cults.

The central theme is that god's son who is also a god dies (December 22nd) and is resurrected on the third day (December 25th).
Did you actually think this was a Christian concept?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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05-02-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(05-02-2012 10:57 AM)Thomas Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 06:29 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  Oh and to say that all the religions in the near east worshipped the sun is a huge mistake. Greeks and Romans did not worship the sun primarily, nor did the Canaanites or the Sumerians. The Sky God/Storm God was the head of the pantheon, hence why they all have a bearded dude up in the sky on top of a damn mountain.

"Greeks and Romans did not worship the sun primarily" OH yes they did!

Sun gods:
Apollo, Ra, Sol Invictus, Mithrus, Helios, Arinna
Just to name a few in the Med area. You also have the same basis all over the world. All modern religions (Christian, Judaism, Islam) derive from sun worshiping cults.

The central theme is that god's son who is also a god dies (December 22nd) and is resurrected on the third day (December 25th).
Did you actually think this was a Christian concept?

It seems I got my facts wrong about the sun and the greeks and the romans. However, Ra is Egyptian, so while he is a sun deity he comes from a different part of the ancient world. However:

Mithrus' cult was considered a fad by the romans along with similar lines to christianity and I think at one point was not actually liked much by the Romans themselves.

And no, the modern religions derive from Sumerian religion and while the worship of the sun was part of it it was not a primary defining figure. The Sumerian pantheon is run by An who is the chief sky God. An is identified in Canaanite religion with El, from whom the Jewish and this Christian and Islamic God is based. In both Canaanite and Sumerian religion, the ancestor religions to ancient Judaism, the sun god is not a terribly important figure in the pantheon but plays a modest role. The Jewish God appears to be a combination of El/An, the Sky deity who is head of the pantheon and Baal/Adad the Storm deity. So really christianity is based off the worship of the sky/thunder god.
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05-02-2012, 06:08 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(05-02-2012 04:49 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  And no, the modern religions derive from Sumerian religion and while the worship of the sun was part of it it was not a primary defining figure. The Sumerian pantheon is run by An who is the chief sky God. An is identified in Canaanite religion with El, from whom the Jewish and this Christian and Islamic God is based. In both Canaanite and Sumerian religion, the ancestor religions to ancient Judaism, the sun god is not a terribly important figure in the pantheon but plays a modest role. The Jewish God appears to be a combination of El/An, the Sky deity who is head of the pantheon and Baal/Adad the Storm deity. So really christianity is based off the worship of the sky/thunder god.

Indeed.
So why, exactly, do you believe in a Christian god?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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05-02-2012, 06:36 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Um.... Because he's Christian? It would be so awkward at the Jesus parties if he didn't believe in the same god. C'mon guys keep up.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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05-02-2012, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2012 08:59 PM by Reactor.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
(25-01-2012 08:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-01-2012 07:04 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(24-01-2012 05:35 PM)Reactor Wrote:  Only humans go to heaven or hell?
How god define humans? There must be a clean line. Everyone after Homo Erectus are humans for god? What if human evolve into a new species?What if we create a human and mutate him with alien(anything that is not human) DNA?
Erm when i said alien i meant any DNA that is not human like rat's, dog's,flower's,etc, I wasn't referring to non-earthly species.

1.If human evolve in a different/new species(more advanced) will he still be able to go in heaven?
2. If we "create" a human with wings will he be able to go to heaven?
3. If a human is born with just 1 hand will he be able to go to heaven?
4. If a human(embryo) dies before he is born will he go to heaven?
5. If a sperm dies will it go to heaven? >.<

Define exactly who can and who can't go to heaven.
Does god have some criteria or he decides on the fly?
Are any of these answered in the Bible or any other books that u believe?

Actually we can do better than that.
"Life begins at conception"...er...did they mean "fertilization".
When is the soul "infused" ?
If "at conception", does that mean when the zygote "approaches" the endometrial wall ? Gets "really close" to the endometrial wall ? Bumps into the endometrial wall ? Sticks to the endometrial wall ?
If at fertilization, does it mean when the sperm gets "really" close to the egg ? When the first electrons from the first atom of the sperm begin to interact with the egg, (and what about the Pauli Exclusion principle, which tell us they were already interacting?) When the first DNA replication process is .0257892416572839 complete ? Do genetic anomalies, (anancephalic babies) have souls ? What if they find beings with 100 % of the "normal" Homo Sapiens DNA, but only 99.9 % is expressed ? Would a Homo Sapiens/Bonobo ape cross, (if it were possible), have a soul ? Did Homo Sapiens/Neanderthal babies have souls ? Will human/robots have souls ? Do humans with two artificial hips, and two knee replacements, and an artificial heart with a ventricular assist device, and is staus post cerebral anoxia have a soul ? So many questions. So little time.

HEY YEAH an other theist to mess up with. Oups I meant chat with Big Grin
KC's answers to the above post wasn't satisfying(like most of the time) so it whould be nice if you could answer some of them.

EDIT:wow i just saw this, and it probably make some of my questions useless, but still you get the concept, especial in the Bucky Ball's post.
(04-02-2012 11:39 AM)Nagoda Wrote:  I believe its possible for animals to have souls.
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05-02-2012, 10:04 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
When does the KC vs Nagoda thread begin?
Hmmm, they have the same god, but have different beliefs.
How odd of your god to do such a thing. There is another explanation......

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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05-02-2012, 11:11 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2012 11:20 PM by KVron.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Nagoda,
- do you believe in Purgatory?
- do you believe Mary was assumed into heaven alive?
- Why do think you are "Catholic" and not a generic Christian? In you opinion as a catholic, what's the difference?

[edit]
Almost forgot one last question:
Do you feel offended when someone makes fun of the bible, Jesus, Mary, etc?
[/edit]

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05-02-2012, 11:48 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2012 06:30 AM by Reactor.)
RE: Ask A Catholic!
What's your IQ and which method or tool you used to determine it? (like being tested by a professional or you just took a random IQ test in the internet?
Edit: Ofc you might never bothered testing it(like most of the people i think)
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05-02-2012, 11:57 PM
RE: Ask A Catholic!
Reactor how many people really put that much stock in IQ tests? The idea you're going for is pretty offensive and the way you're asking is awkward at best. An aptitude test does not really determine that much, especially since dependent on what age the person took the test it would be a different test. By Nagoda's ability to type it's obvious he is competent enough. Why he sees christianity as a myth yet agrees with it I can't tell you. It seems like he was just raised roman catholic and never shirked off the title when becoming a deist. He believes in a god and simply doesn't want to change parks or anything. There are plenty of social christians who agree with parts of what christianity is so they keep the title. Some don't even believe in god.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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