Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-08-2012, 07:02 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 06:36 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  What you make of the fact that there is not one documented case of God ever healing an amputee or a child with Down's syndrome?

God hates them. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
22-08-2012, 07:05 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 05:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 04:34 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I'm sorry, but my world of discussion didn't revolve around you in my introduction. If you didn't notice, there was 25 pages and counting of responses. Thus I must have missed your comment. I have a life outside of this forum and so I cannot commit all my time to answering every one of the questions raised in that thread.

I'm studying to become a pastor, not a scientist. I've taken up to pre-calc mathematics, and I took biology, chemistry, and physics in high school.
How many Biblical hermeneutics classes have you taken?
How many Old Testament classes have you taken?
How many New Testament classes have you taken?
How many theology classes have you take?
None of my responses to kings questions had anything to do with those fields you listed, and I have never claimed to be an expert in those areas. If you have a theological or religious question, ask it. If not, go to the other thread I started.

I am in, besides the undergrad program in Physics at CalTech, the Divinity School at Harvard. I will be one of the first openly atheist graduates of the Divinity School, with a PhD in Scripture. Is that good enough for you ? The fact is, sonny, you display such a complete, astounding and embarrasing ignorance of your own field, that I asked your qualifications, just to be sure that I was wasting may time, even talking to you. You are like talking to a Third Grader. You know NOTHING of the origins of Scripture, and Ancient History. I feel sorry for you, and your future congregations. You are an embarrasment to yourself, and you cause. Go get an education, before you set yourself up as an expert. I actually know far more about your religion than you do. That is why we suggested you go look at the other threads, which have discussed this crap before. You did not bother. Good luck. You are making a fool of yourself.

And BTW, as I said to the last guys who asked me how much Hemeneutics I ever took, the answer is NONE. Hopefully, I will never take any of that crap. I did hear of Herman Munster though. Does that count ?
They offer a Phd in Scripture...interesting. Their website shows no "Phd in Scripture." What are doing your dissertation on? I would be interested in reading it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-08-2012, 07:05 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 07:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 06:36 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  What you make of the fact that there is not one documented case of God ever healing an amputee or a child with Down's syndrome?

God hates them. Drinking Beverage

Since when are amputees and kids with Down's figs?

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-08-2012, 07:07 PM
Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 07:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 07:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  God hates them. Drinking Beverage

Since when are amputees and kids with Down's figs?

All three make me uncomfortable, but I don't hate them. Does that make me better or worse than God?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Erxomai's post
22-08-2012, 07:18 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 05:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The Akkadians predate the Hebrews by 1500 years. The Akkadian stories are adapted from Sumerian stories. In turn, these stories are eerily similar to Genesis stories. In fact, almost every Near Eastern Culture has adapted these stories in their history.

So, how do you reconcile the Hebrews' stories not actually being Hebrew by, at minimum, 1500 years? Moreover, how do you explain other, more ancient cultures having the same stories with slight adaptions?

How do you reconcile that all historical evidence points to the stories in Genesis not being of Hebrew origin?

I think they all the stories share a common point of origin, lending credence to their actual occurrence.

‘Many who have done thorough linguistic and literary analysis (e.g., A. Heidel, A.R. Millard, D. Damrosch) conclude that literary dependence cannot be demonstrated. Here, as in most of the parallels in the primeval history, it is considered more likely that Mesopotamian and biblical traditions are based on a common source. Some understand this common source to be a piece of more ancient literature, while others consider it the actual event.’, Hill & Walton, ‘A Survey of the Old Testament’, p. (2010).

‘This suggests that we are not dealing with a literary dependence or even a tradition dependence as much as we are dealing with two literary perspectives on a single actual event.‘, Walton, ‘Ancient Israelite Literature in Its Cultural Context: A Survey of Parallels’, p. 40 (1994)

‘On the basis of substantial historical evidence, coupled with many parallel words and phrases, what reasonable conclusions could we make? Here are just three: 1. There is a likelihood that a flood event actually happened. Why would the Akkadians, Sumerians, and Hebrews invent such a story unless there was some historical basis? 2. considering the parallel accounts are describing a historical event in the region of southern Mesopotamia about 2900 B.C., then Genesis also is describing the same historical, regional flood, and not a global deluge. 3. A regional flood would have brought judgment to those in the region. Judgment would have been specific to the sinful Adamite population, those answerable to God, rather than a universal pronouncement upon all mankind everywhere.’, Fischer, ‘Historical Genesis: from Adam to Abraham’, p. 140 (2008).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-08-2012, 07:20 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 05:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 04:34 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I'm sorry, but my world of discussion didn't revolve around you in my introduction. If you didn't notice, there was 25 pages and counting of responses. Thus I must have missed your comment. I have a life outside of this forum and so I cannot commit all my time to answering every one of the questions raised in that thread.

I'm studying to become a pastor, not a scientist. I've taken up to pre-calc mathematics, and I took biology, chemistry, and physics in high school.
How many Biblical hermeneutics classes have you taken?
How many Old Testament classes have you taken?
How many New Testament classes have you taken?
How many theology classes have you take?
None of my responses to kings questions had anything to do with those fields you listed, and I have never claimed to be an expert in those areas. If you have a theological or religious question, ask it. If not, go to the other thread I started.

I am in, besides the undergrad program in Physics at CalTech, the Divinity School at Harvard. I will be one of the first openly atheist graduates of the Divinity School, with a PhD in Scripture. Is that good enough for you ? The fact is, sonny, you display such a complete, astounding and embarrasing ignorance of your own field, that I asked your qualifications, just to be sure that I was wasting may time, even talking to you. You are like talking to a Third Grader. You know NOTHING of the origins of Scripture, and Ancient History. I feel sorry for you, and your future congregations. You are an embarrasment to yourself, and you cause. Go get an education, before you set yourself up as an expert. I actually know far more about your religion than you do. That is why we suggested you go look at the other threads, which have discussed this crap before. You did not bother. Good luck. You are making a fool of yourself.

And BTW, as I said to the last guys who asked me how much Hemeneutics I ever took, the answer is NONE. Hopefully, I will never take any of that crap. I did hear of Herman Munster though. Does that count ?

Look... TR, I want to help you out here, but Bucky is right. I mean, a little harsh, but right.

Your display of knowledge is very superficial and wrought with religious baggage. If you are going to learn science and history, then you can't infuse it with your religion. Science and history should help mold your view, you shouldn't try and explain away science or history or apologize for your religion.

There are reconciliations for topics, but there are also counter arguments. Being ignorant of everything but what you've learned in a few classes is very dangerous... indoctrination is never good... on any level... with anything.

Also... and really, really, REALLY pay attention to this... this is something I had to learn...

There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know."

It doesn't make you dumb. It doesn't put a nail in the coffin of your beliefs. It's simply saying that you don't have the knowledge at this time. This shows maturity in your beliefs and maturity as a debater.

Doing mental gymnastics and giving veiled and logically dishonest answers discredits you and your ability to converse on a serious level.

I mean... just reading some of your theology... it's like... I don't know... you're holding on to old beliefs and trying to embrace new ones... the whole time trying to reconcile these beliefs together and make them fit, when they don't.

I used to do this with evolution... and election... and the Creation Account... and the Flood Account. But, when I let go of my preconceived ideas about what I thought God was saying or teaching me, and I was able to understand what He really wanted me to know. Everything else then fell into place. I just started following where the evidence led.

Take my advice with a grain of salt if you want to... I have no formal training in Biblical studies or scripture... or anything having to do with Christianity. I simply learned on my own. But ask the others around here... I can hold my on in a debate as well as offer new perspectives on horse-beaten topics.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like kingschosen's post
22-08-2012, 07:24 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 07:18 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 05:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The Akkadians predate the Hebrews by 1500 years. The Akkadian stories are adapted from Sumerian stories. In turn, these stories are eerily similar to Genesis stories. In fact, almost every Near Eastern Culture has adapted these stories in their history.

So, how do you reconcile the Hebrews' stories not actually being Hebrew by, at minimum, 1500 years? Moreover, how do you explain other, more ancient cultures having the same stories with slight adaptions?

How do you reconcile that all historical evidence points to the stories in Genesis not being of Hebrew origin?

I think they all the stories share a common point of origin, lending credence to their actual occurrence.

‘Many who have done thorough linguistic and literary analysis (e.g., A. Heidel, A.R. Millard, D. Damrosch) conclude that literary dependence cannot be demonstrated. Here, as in most of the parallels in the primeval history, it is considered more likely that Mesopotamian and biblical traditions are based on a common source. Some understand this common source to be a piece of more ancient literature, while others consider it the actual event.’, Hill & Walton, ‘A Survey of the Old Testament’, p. (2010).

‘This suggests that we are not dealing with a literary dependence or even a tradition dependence as much as we are dealing with two literary perspectives on a single actual event.‘, Walton, ‘Ancient Israelite Literature in Its Cultural Context: A Survey of Parallels’, p. 40 (1994)

‘On the basis of substantial historical evidence, coupled with many parallel words and phrases, what reasonable conclusions could we make? Here are just three: 1. There is a likelihood that a flood event actually happened. Why would the Akkadians, Sumerians, and Hebrews invent such a story unless there was some historical basis? 2. considering the parallel accounts are describing a historical event in the region of southern Mesopotamia about 2900 B.C., then Genesis also is describing the same historical, regional flood, and not a global deluge. 3. A regional flood would have brought judgment to those in the region. Judgment would have been specific to the sinful Adamite population, those answerable to God, rather than a universal pronouncement upon all mankind everywhere.’, Fischer, ‘Historical Genesis: from Adam to Abraham’, p. 140 (2008).

You've quote things I've already read and researched.

I didn't ask what their reconciliation was... I asked you.

If you agree with the above, then you agree that Noah of the Bible is actually an embellished, hyperbolic story of something that happened thousands of years before.

You can't believe the above and believe in a literal Noah as told in the Bible.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-08-2012, 07:35 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2012 11:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 07:05 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  [They offer a Phd in Scripture...interesting. Their website shows no "Phd in Scripture." What are doing your dissertation on? I would be interested in reading it.

Yes they do. It's called Biblical Studies. However if you have ever been there, (which I highly doubt), you can talk to them about allowing you into more than one program/department at once, especially if they like you and you grandfather was a major donor. When I ran away from Choate, (high school), and went home, as I missed my horse, my brothers, and my grandmum, my parents told me if I could get into college when I was 16, (which I did), they would not insist I return.

My PhD dissertation is on one of the Sumerian Creation myths, which Genesis was "approriated", (stolen), from. I wanted to learn to read Cuneiform languages and tablets, so I could actually see and read the actual physical original tablets, which your Bible was taken from, and where human beings actually first cooked up these ideas. However my program is a joint one, as the program had to be approved by The Divinity School, the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Ancient History, and the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
22-08-2012, 08:03 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2012 08:14 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(22-08-2012 07:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have no formal training in Biblical studies or scripture...

I do have quite a bit of formal training in logic and reason. And I find his moniker of "TrueReason" denigrating to those of us who have invested a shitload of time and energy and study and money into logic and reason. Be like signing up to a Christian forum with the moniker "TrueGod". ... I haven't decided whether to keep him or just fucking eat him. ... I like him. ... But that don't help none with my decision whether to keep him or just fucking eat him.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like GirlyMan's post
22-08-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
I either passed over your response to this in your original thread, or you passed it over in the mass of posts. But since it applies to the questions KC raised, I'll pose it again:


How do you explain that miracles have only happened during 4 specific Bible times and never since? Moses could do miracles. Then a few centuries with zero miracles Elijah and Elisha get to do a few tricks. A few centuries until Daniel and his budz conjure up a couple of illusions and then several more centuries pass until Yeshua and his posse pull a few rabbits out of their hats.

How much trust can you really place in the veracity of these miracles. Or if you're of a more liberal understanding and don't believe in the biblical miracles, then why should anyone even believe there was anything like a real god if there is no special revelation showing what an awesome god it is?

Speaking of placing your trust in these stories, how do you reconcile that there is not one shred of physical evidence for anything mentioned in Bible until approximately 900ish BCE?

No evidence of any patriarch (except in that they coincide with Caananite demigods).

No evidence of a Moses or an exodus.

No evidence of a Joshua or a conquest of Caanan (in fact quite the opposite. The archeological evidence shows the city states of Caanan collapsed internally into villages and territories lead by warlords.

The very first piece of physical evidence that mentions anything in the bible isn't until sometime during the 9th century BCE. A faint, cryptic carving that refers to the "house of David" on something called the Tel Dan Stele.

There is a lot of biblical material that you are basing your faith on, yet not one hint of evidence to be found in reality.

No mention of an actual king David or kingdom. In fact, there is no other substantial archeological evidence for anything in the old testament until you get to the destruction of Israel in the 700s and Judah in the 500s. And the physical evidence of that time shows us this is when the history of the Jews was invented to unify themselves as a people and to comfort their sorrows in captivity. They found a bunch of old creation myths and they found some poetry and they put together documents that gave themselves an imaginary pedigree and a code of rules that would make them distinct not only from their masters, but from their fellow captives from other countries.

Don't even get me started on NT documents. Let's just say they exist because of the OT documents. Since there is no verification that anything in the Jewish history actually happened until about 2500 years ago, why do you think it's acceptable to believe any of it is real?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Erxomai's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: