Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
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25-08-2012, 03:14 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 02:58 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 01:15 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Bump
God isn't some miracle vending machine. Just because something only happened a few times says nothing at all. If it happened all the time, it wouldn't be considered a miracle.

As for the Old Testament, there is actually a significant amount of archeological discoveries that attest to their veracity. Peoples such as Hittites mentioned in the Bible, though previously considered non-existent, have been discovered. As for the assertion about David...I believe you may be incorrect there. Two years ago I visited Turkey, Jordan, and Israel and if I remember correctly, they had recently found inscriptions mentioning him. If you would like, I can do more research to verify that claim.

Oh please do, I am sure we'd all enjoy a read.

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25-08-2012, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2012 03:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
All of Deuteronomy was "cooked up", ("discoverered") by King Josiah, in/around 622 BCE, in order to codify/unify the political situation. Richard Elliot Freedman ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Elliott_Friedman ), a leading expert on Jewish history, and scripture, agrees, it was a forgery.

All of the Pentateuch was written, and re-written at known dates, for known political reasons. No scholars in mainline schools dispitues these historical facts.

Did you visit the Royal Library at Ashurbanipal, to see where the Enuma Elish was found, for the most part, intact ? It is the set of myths on which almost all of Genesis was based, and appropriated. The fact that certain historical sites, and communities are mentioned, in NO way, verifies that the myths in the Bible are true. If THAT is your standard, then you MUST admit, that Olympus, proves Zeus, existed.




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25-08-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 02:52 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 01:15 PM)kim Wrote:  Yea bump

So?

I guess that means that everyone should take it that your response to: "What you make of the fact that there is not one documented case of God ever healing an amputee or a child with Down's syndrome?" is "no comment"? Or that they can assume you mean "god doesn't do miracles anymore that would be undeniable it is a miracle"?



(25-08-2012 02:58 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  God isn't some miracle vending machine. Just because something only happened a few times says nothing at all. If it happened all the time, it wouldn't be considered a miracle.

As for the Old Testament, there is actually a significant amount of archeological discoveries that attest to their veracity. Peoples such as Hittites mentioned in the Bible, though previously considered non-existent, have been discovered. As for the assertion about David...I believe you may be incorrect there. Two years ago I visited Turkey, Jordan, and Israel and if I remember correctly, they had recently found inscriptions mentioning him. If you would like, I can do more research to verify that claim.

A miracle could happen every second of every day for eternity--and it'd still be a miracle. It's when the exact same thing would happen every single time it would cease to be a miracle (it would be part of the standard world--like the sun "coming up"). Although there's no miracles even in the bible that don't have explanations (and not just saying "there's no proof outside the bible", but there would be scientific or observable proof or knowledge we have today that they didn't have then that would explain it--even if schizophrenia and hallucinations covers a lot of it).

Oh, and just because people or names of people may exist--it doesn't mean anything about them in the bible is true (or even the names weren't given/written down after someone read about the bible for a scam). My first name is Joshua--that in no way would validate anything in the bible, nor would discovering anyone in the past with a name of "Joshua" proves the "Joshua" in the bible. Just because someone had a name in the bible doesn't mean they were the only person on the entire planet called that. Just because a civilization that the bible mentioned existed wouldn't mean that everything the bible said about them is true.
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25-08-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 12:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Moses, if he ever existed, (and he probably didn't), is known by scholars to NOT be the author of the Pentateuch. But thanks for revealing your level of ignorance. The Book of Deuteronomy describes his death and burial. How many people write about their OWN death and burial ? Scholars know when Deuteronomy "just happened" to be discovered, and by whom, (and why he made it up).
As I said, he had some help. I don't believe that it is vitally important that Moses was the sole author of the Pentateuch.

He wasn't in any sense the author. These were written centuries after he supposedly lived.

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25-08-2012, 04:19 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  As I said, he had some help. I don't believe that it is vitally important that Moses was the sole author of the Pentateuch.

He wasn't in any sense the author. These were written centuries after he supposedly lived.

I do know that. We know when and why the stories were written.
The present texts are "assemblages", (as you know). The Moses stuff comes pretty much from the "Southern" traditions/myth systems, which clearly came from intereaction with Egyptian concepts, locations, sources, and gods, and other South Canaan locations, specifically, principally Edom. The relative similarity of the name Javeh, (which came from the Egyptian volcano god, and the Edomite mountain god), with the Northern traditions, which had Yehweh (Sabaoth), have led to the mistaken notion that they are the same deity. They actually have two completely separate origins.

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25-08-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 02:58 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 01:15 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Bump
God isn't some miracle vending machine. Just because something only happened a few times says nothing at all. If it happened all the time, it wouldn't be considered a miracle.

As for the Old Testament, there is actually a significant amount of archeological discoveries that attest to their veracity. Peoples such as Hittites mentioned in the Bible, though previously considered non-existent, have been discovered. As for the assertion about David...I believe you may be incorrect there. Two years ago I visited Turkey, Jordan, and Israel and if I remember correctly, they had recently found inscriptions mentioning him. If you would like, I can do more research to verify that claim.

As to miracles...I get the vending machine thing, BUT, if the majority of the reason to have religious faith is based upon miraculous events that have no basis of having ever happened, that's a pretty weak reason to believe. I should think you'd want more to base your beliefs on than some ancient fantastical stories of a burning bush and a pot of oil that never runs dry.

And yes, I'd love to see your research to your claim that there is more archeological evidence for the events and people in the Old Testament. For the New Testament too, for that matter.

You've given 1 objection that a people called the Hittites existed. This is true. Until the 19th Century, there was no source outside the Bible that these people existed by name. Go back and look at that again. Does that make the Bible true for you because 1 people group is confirmed?
I did not say other countries have not been discovered that are named in the Old Testament. I said there is no evidence for any single person or event until a small mention of the "House of David" roughly between 2500-3000 years ago. If you're going to believe in a god that was supposedly actively and PERSONALLY involved for at least 6,000 years (talking recorded Bible history, not the YEC age for the earth), wouldn't you want to know that these things actually have a place in reality and not just some fictional stories that have no verification? If a million people crossed the desert, no, spent 40 years camping in the desert, wouldn't you want verification that there actually was an Exodus? Yet, there is not 1 sandal buckle, not one tent stake, not one piece of Golden Calf, not one encampment. If a million people lived somewhere for 40 years, where is the trash heap? If that same horde of people then invaded a settled land called Canaan, wouldn't you expect to find evidence of a massive conquest? On the contrary, archaeological evidence shows that rather than a conquest from the outside, the Canaanite city states eroded over centuries from internal strife that lead to small primitive villages popping up everywhere. There is strong evidence that a group of people in the Northern Hills of Canaan began to call themselves Israelites, CENTURIES after the supposed conquest by Joshua. If there was a central kingdom with a warrior king named David and his wise son Solomon, wouldn't you expect there to be a shred of proof? But there is not, for any of these things. No Abraham, no Isaac, no Joseph, no Moses, no Joshua, no Samuel, no Saul, no David...etc, ad nauseam. The only reasonable explanation is it didn't happen. It's all invented history. There is the exact same amount of evidence for Zeus and Mount Olympus as there is for any single Bible story. Zilch. Doesn't that say anything at all to you?

Your faith is admirable only in so far as it is grounded in reality. Having a strong faith in something that did not happen is just a pipe dream.

So yes, please share evidence and if it's verifiable, I'll reverse my previous claims and apologize for being wrong. (Something most Christians can't do, my former self included).

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25-08-2012, 07:56 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
Quote:As for the Old Testament, there is actually a significant amount of archeological
discoveries that attest to their veracity.
Peoples such as Hittites mentioned in the
Bible, though previously considered non-
existent, have been discovered. As for the
assertion about David...I believe you may be
incorrect there. Two years ago I visited
Turkey, Jordan, and Israel and if I remember
correctly, they had recently found
inscriptions mentioning him. If you would
like, I can do more research to verify that
claim.

I can't believe... Never mind

Anyways where in Isreal, Jordon, or Turkey did you see this? On what was it carved? Who verified its authenticity?

Also you have to know there is a bible relic business in those countries as well.

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25-08-2012, 08:00 PM
RE: Ask TrueReason...Religious questions
(25-08-2012 07:56 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I can't believe... Never mind

Anyways where in Isreal, Jordon, or Turkey did you see this? On what was it carved? Who verified its authenticity?

Also you have to know there is a bible relic business in those countries as well.

Are you saying all those "George Washington slept here" signs in New England are fraudulent? Shocking

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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