Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
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13-02-2012, 05:27 AM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
Hi TS, thanks for doing this.
I would like to, if possible, follow up on what Ben said about birth control. I went to catholic school as well, so I can confirm on this: The catholic church is against birth control because they believe that sex should only be used for procreation within the confines of marriage.

Do you agree with this? Does this mean you will not have sex until you want to have a child (assuming as you are 19, you are unmarried and don't have children)?

Do you not believe that in this case, using birth control is better than abortions, neglected children, and the poverty which might ensue from unplanned pregnancy?

Do you still maintain that your church is right about birth control? If yes, please justify.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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15-02-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
Further about the Catholic stance on birth control:

Here's a little thought experiment for you, TS--

Imagine a scenario where the Catholic Church becomes phenomenally successful in converting people, and the whole world becomes Catholic. Imagine too that all Catholics start obeying the teachings of the Church, in particular the claim that the only sin-free way to have sex while avoiding pregnancy is the rhythm method.

What do you think the world would look like in 50 years? We now have 7 billion humans on the planet. What would the population be in 2062? What will have become of the environment? How much will poverty have increased after families balloon in size all over the world?

Or do you think that "God will provide" to make everything all right?

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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15-02-2012, 04:06 PM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
I personally have two problems with birth control.

1) I believe birth control can lead to divorce for some people since when on birth control a women is attracted to the opposite type of person that they would want to be with. So once they come off birth control this can lead to separation.

2) The other thing is that the countries that use birth control are starting to have problems with aging populations and they are all first world countries. Meanwhile there is very little usage of birth control in third world nations even in countries where Catholics are not a majority.

those are personal reasons I do not know the reasoning behind the church's banning other than scripture.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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15-02-2012, 04:11 PM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(12-02-2012 04:39 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Another thing I believe is that people justify their lifestyle with atheism since the bible is against premarital sex and stealing

Holy crap that's a huge stretch and a ridiculous oversimplification of why someone would "justify atheism" if they honestly believed in God but simply chose to deny him. Would you call yourself an atheist simply because you wanted to have sex or steal a CD? Would you say to yourself, "I know Hell is a place of eternal torment and it will be my destiny if I keep sinning- but you know what? I'm going to do it! I just want to have sex with something so bad that I can't help it! So, Hell it is then! And I'll just say that I think there is no God so I don't feel bad; but I really honestly know that I'm going to Hell." That's pretty ridiculous, isn't it?

When you say that people justify their lifestyle by calling themselves atheists, that's essentially what you're saying. "They know the truth, but they're denying the truth so they can do what they want." This completely rules out the possibility that humans capable of reason have studied science and philosophy and theology and come to a logical conclusion that does not involve (or at least does not require) any supernatural being called god. With this type of statement you've reduced all people from logical thinking beings to sexually craven thieves. It's no wonder that people don't trust atheists- it's because of sweeping statements like this.

(12-02-2012 04:39 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  there was a study on the religiousness of teacher the goal being whether hard sciences lead more to atheism than soft sciences. The results found that there is no significant difference between the religiousness of soft versus hard but they did find that those who were married and had kids were more likely to be religious than those who were unmarried and living with a partner or were sexually active.

If you would, please cite the study because I'm not quite following what the purpose of the study was- what they were testing and how they were testing it. Especially if they've come to a conclusion that seems (at least based on your description) unrelated to the study. How did we go from hard/soft sciences to married/unmarried? I guess I just need to know more about this study before considering it too much more.

But, to the point that you're making, it also seems that you believe that since those unmarried couples were living together, they don't want to believe in God because they know they're living in sin; while the married couples have no reason to deny God so they follow God. If the results of the study are accurate, then isn't it just as possible that those who married succumbed to societal expectations to get married and have children upon reaching adulthood? Would those same people also be more likely to succumb to societal pressures to count themselves as among the religious? My point is, that if the results study you mentioned are accurate, then aren't there other just as likely explanations that don't support your point? Of course there are.

In my case, I was religious up until a couple of years after I got married. And I'm far from the only one on these boards with a story like that. I am not "living in sin" by having sex with anyone I feel like, but instead I'm a monogamous married man who wants to enjoy my life and be a decent human being. I don't fit in your line of sexually craven thieves.
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15-02-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I personally have two problems with birth control.

1) I believe birth control can lead to divorce for some people since when on birth control a women is attracted to the opposite type of person that they would want to be with. So once they come off birth control this can lead to separation.

2) The other thing is that the countries that use birth control are starting to have problems with aging populations and they are all first world countries. Meanwhile there is very little usage of birth control in third world nations even in countries where Catholics are not a majority.

those are personal reasons I do not know the reasoning behind the church's banning other than scripture.

Your first reason is pretty weird. Do you have any evidence for that?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-02-2012, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2012 04:43 PM by kineo.)
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I personally have two problems with birth control.

1) I believe birth control can lead to divorce for some people since when on birth control a women is attracted to the opposite type of person that they would want to be with. So once they come off birth control this can lead to separation.

Since you're a woman, would you share your stories of how birth control has affected which type of men you are attracted to both while off and on birth control? How did that affect your marriage?

(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  2) The other thing is that the countries that use birth control are starting to have problems with aging populations and they are all first world countries. Meanwhile there is very little usage of birth control in third world nations even in countries where Catholics are not a majority.

those are personal reasons I do not know the reasoning behind the church's banning other than scripture.

Birth control in third world countries would go a long way toward improving the situations of poverty, if only they had access and the sexual education to support it. Aging populations is NOT a problem. That's a sign that you're doing something right. How to support an aging population is a problem, but one that can't be solved by simply having tons of kids.

And I don't know about you, but even with birth control available, lots of people my age have children or are trying to have children, or plan to have children. But they can now do it right, with preparation and planning. How is that a bad thing?

Also, I think you need to seriously look into this issue and really dig into the facts. These two reasons you've given are flimsy and terrible reasons to deny the world population access to family planning tools.
(15-02-2012 04:17 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I personally have two problems with birth control.

1) I believe birth control can lead to divorce for some people since when on birth control a women is attracted to the opposite type of person that they would want to be with. So once they come off birth control this can lead to separation.

Since you're a woman, would you share your stories of how birth control has affected which type of men you are attracted to both while off and on birth control? How did that affect your marriage?

Ok, so... a quick Google search found this Scientific American article briefly explaining how "birth control can lead to divorce".

While the science may suggest that a woman's preference may change, I am curious just how frequently this is actually an issue that can be pinned to the use of birth control. I still think that it's a very flimsy reason to deny access to birth control. I think that the when two individuals both actually cultivate and nurture a bond together it is much stronger than simple attraction. Given only the information I've just read, I wouldn't conclude that it has any significant impact on divorce rates.
I'm sorry for my tone, I realized I'm probably coming off a bit more aggressive than is warranted... I'll back it off a bit. Blush
(12-02-2012 03:36 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  First at TalladegaTom, in a word of explanation about my signature up there I happen to be a fan of Warhammer 40k. Especially the imperium.

Is this the "Death to the heretic" title you have? Because that doesn't explain why you chose that as a title when coming to a forum of atheists (aka, heretics). I don't see how this isn't an intentional message. It doesn't offend me, just don't try to justify it as incidental.
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15-02-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(15-02-2012 04:17 PM)kineo Wrote:  Since you're a woman, would you share your stories of how birth control has affected which type of men you are attracted to both while off and on birth control? How did that affect your marriage?

Whut? Tarzan's a woman? Does that make Jane a dude? Huh

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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16-02-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(15-02-2012 10:43 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(15-02-2012 04:17 PM)kineo Wrote:  Since you're a woman, would you share your stories of how birth control has affected which type of men you are attracted to both while off and on birth control? How did that affect your marriage?

Whut? Tarzan's a woman? Does that make Jane a dude? Huh

He forgot the sarcasm tags Tongue
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16-02-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I personally have two problems with birth control.

1) I believe birth control can lead to divorce for some people since when on birth control a women is attracted to the opposite type of person that they would want to be with. So once they come off birth control this can lead to separation.

Little known fact: Smooshmonster is also a woman. And smooshmonster has been on the pill for many years. Smooshmonster has researched every possible side-effect and read several studies and has never read this. There are undesirable side-effects, but none of them bad enough to risk unwanted pregnancy.

Additionally, the pill is not the only type of birth control. Condoms work really well, although not everyone likes them. But they're still better than getting pregnant or attempting abstinence.


(15-02-2012 04:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  2) The other thing is that the countries that use birth control are starting to have problems with aging populations and they are all first world countries. Meanwhile there is very little usage of birth control in third world nations even in countries where Catholics are not a majority.

While this is not entirely untrue, the reason for it is not birth control. It's like saying the reason many people stab each other is because of knives, and knives should be illegal. The problem with outlawing knives is that you won't be able to cut cake. And I happen to like cake.
Women don't want to have children, and there is a reason for that. Address this reason, not the method they are using to stop themselves having children. If you force them to have children they don't want, you are not solving the problem.

High birth rates and unwanted pregnancies are a much bigger problem throughout the world.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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17-02-2012, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2012 06:31 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Conservative Catholic/Dominican
(16-02-2012 08:09 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  Little known fact: Smooshmonster is also a woman. And smooshmonster has been on the pill for many years. Smooshmonster has researched every possible side-effect and read several studies and has never read this. There are undesirable side-effects, but none of them bad enough to risk unwanted pregnancy.

Smooshmonster was not the co-author on that excellent post-editing for statistical MT paper that Girly thought (yes, I assumed you were Josef and yes, I realize how just utterly wrong that is). Girly feels the need to apologize for his apparently still active sexism and sexual stereotyping even though I work under women (both at work and at home). Thought I had suppressed that into dormancy. I certainly am not gonna dismiss your demonstrated capacity for doing your own research, hell it's probably keener than mine.

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