Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
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02-04-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 05:51 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Already got that just now. Damn the great firewall for being so incompetent !

Not sophisticated enough for me. It is a novel, published nearly 70 years ago, after all.


Not sophisticated enough for you? That is such an ignorant statement.Consider

I'd suggest you actually read it. Then you may comment intelligently.

I hope the sophisticated comment was about the great firewall and not one of the semminal works of the 20th century. Happy reading.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-04-2013, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 06:26 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not sophisticated enough for you? That is such an ignorant statement.Consider

I'd suggest you actually read it. Then you may comment intelligently.

Clicked on the 'Like' button by mistake.

Yet like I said, thank your, sir. End of conversation.

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02-04-2013, 06:40 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 06:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 06:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not sophisticated enough for you? That is such an ignorant statement.Consider

I'd suggest you actually read it. Then you may comment intelligently.

I hope the sophisticated comment was about the great firewall and not one of the semminal works of the 20th century. Happy reading.

Started reading. Let hope a sophisticated understanding of this book wouldn't be that school teachers and official warned a nine-year-old school girl against and banned her commenting on the school lunch.

Always like this. Can we cut these? Smile

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02-04-2013, 06:58 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 06:40 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 06:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I hope the sophisticated comment was about the great firewall and not one of the semminal works of the 20th century. Happy reading.

Started reading. Let hope a sophisticated understanding of this book wouldn't be that school teachers and official warned a nine-year-old school girl against and banned her commenting on the school lunch.

Always like this. Can we cut these? Smile

All I ask is you read the book before dismissing it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-04-2013, 06:59 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 06:58 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 06:40 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Started reading. Let hope a sophisticated understanding of this book wouldn't be that school teachers and official warned a nine-year-old school girl against and banned her commenting on the school lunch.

Always like this. Can we cut these? Smile

All I ask is you read the book before dismissing it.

Understood. And already started.

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02-04-2013, 07:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 07:46 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Yup it was I who mentioned Orwells' 1984 on another thread.

1984 is definitely worth reading if only to gain a view of why many westerners are nervous of / guarded against anything smacking of totalitarianism.

Interestingly another influential novel, Brave New World by Aldous Huxley seems in hindsight to be more predictive than 1984.

This is also worth reading but here is a comparison of the two...

[Image: huxleyvsorwell1.jpg]

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02-04-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 07:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Yup it was I who mentioned Orwells' 1984 on another thread.

1984 is definitely worth reading if only to gain a view of why many westerners are nervous of / guarded against anything smacking of totalitarianism.

Interestingly another influential novel, Brave New World by Aldous Huxley seems in hindsight to be more predictive than 1984.

This is also worth reading but here is a comparison of the two...

[Image: huxleyvsorwell1.jpg]

Raises a lot of good points however I have always felt that 1984 helped to prevent the very thing it was predicting. I know for me personaly it had the effect of removing any attraction to the far left. Granted I also read Atlas Shrugged and dismissed the far right as insane as well.



Huxley's vision in hindsight does seem to be closer to reality. As far as the 2 books go I prefer the style and tone of 1984. Brave New World seemed like a very light read by comparison. But thats just a matter of taste and I'm sure there are as many people who prefer Huxley's style to Orwell's.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-04-2013, 08:33 AM
Re: RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 05:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  How does Communism allow for freedom of the individual, including property rights? ...

Thumbsup Good questions!

And I am afraid that I am not able to make my points simple and clear as one, two, three ... But I do have things to say.

Before we start, let us keep in mind that communism was a theory first published nearly 200 hundred years ago by smart but still human beings. Marx himself said that matter is constant in motion and changes. The communism theory should therefore also also comply. Being flawed or even quite wrong in some aspects at the beginning (usually tens of years, even hundreds, think about the history of capitalism) was not always unforgivable.

So let's have a sense of balance.

By the way, I am just a human being like you, an ordinary Chinese citizen and a junior communist member, not the Chinese ambassador or a Communism Grand Theorist and Practitioner. I have to look up some stuff and answer you with my own understanding. It might be quite slow for me to answer. My apologies.

If you agree, let's proceed.

Firstly, the reality part.

People made their own interpretations of the predictions made by Marx according to his theory and built nations in their interpretation's image and in the name of communism. They encountered great difficulty. They made catastrophic mistakes.

And people from the West who supposed have enjoyed their democracy and freedom for many years, or even hundreds of years, say the following regarding the communism countries:

There were purges.
There were death sentences with no court or a puppet court or a very biased court involvement at least.
There was force labor.
There were labor or concentration camps.
There was no democracy at all.
There were no elections at all.
There was no freedom at all.
There were people judged guilty for thinking not in the appointed way.
There was no freedom for people to move abroad.
There was this ever-lasting brainwashing.
There were lots of dictators.
There was not a single thing that was not owned by the government (or nation).
There were lots of robbing people of their properties.
There was no free speech at all.
There was the CENSORSHIP.
There was no or little possibility that radical thinkers could make their voices heard without being arrested and put into prison or labor camps.
There was no or little possibility that dissidents could make their voices heard without being arrested and put into prison or labor camps.
There was no or little possibility that civil rights leaders could make their voices heard without being arrested prison or and put into labor camps.
There was such rapidness in which all these above happened on they were contacted by the free Western media.
There were horrible criminal activities, atrocities, committed by the governments towards their own people.
There were horrible criminal activities, atrocities, committed by the governments towards the free Western people.
There were many kinds of poisonous stuff distributed the governments towards their own people.
There were many kinds of poisonous stuff distributed the governments towards their own people.
There were people oppressed by the governments.
There were religious people oppressed by the governments.
There were religious people oppressed by the governments who no longer wanted to stand it any more and craved to throw up the nations ASAP.
There were minority peoples oppressed by the governments.
There were minority peoples oppressed by the governments who no longer wanted to stand it any more and craved to split with the nations ASAP.

(Basically what I've heard and could think of. If anything important is missing, you guys can tell me to add it.)

The reality is that many or most of these things mentioned above happened in history, and varied in different degrees. Be it exactly the same, slightly different or quite different, all these things mentioned above happened.

Many 'communist' countries failed. Actually they didn't dare to call their countries 'communist'. Instead they all called their motherlands 'socialist' or 'people's' countries.

What they call themselves isn't all that relevant though, is it? As I understand it, the government of those countries largely espoused Communist ideals, which was my point. As you point out though, no country is purely Communist.

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Soviet Union)_______ (1922 to 1991)
Czechoslovak Socialist Republic______________________(1948 to 1990) (People's Republic 1948-1960; Socialist Republic 1960-1990)
Hungarian People's Republic________________________(1949 to 1989)
Socialist Republic of Romania_______________________(1947 to 1989) (People's Republic 1947-1965; Socialist Republic 1965-1989)
People's Republic of Bulgaria________________________(1946 to 1990)
Polish People's Republic___________________________(1944 to 1989)
German Democratic Republic (East Germany)___________(1946 to 1990)
Albanian Socialist People's Republic__________________(1946 to 1991) (People's Republic 1946-1976; Socialist Republic 1976-1991)
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia_______________(1945 to 1992) (Democratic Federation 1945-1946; Federal People's Republic 1946-1963; Socialist Federal Republic 1963-1992)
Mongolian People's Republic________________________(1924 to 1991)
The Democratic Republic of Cambodia (Khmer Rouge)___(1975 ~ 1979)
The People's Republic of Cambodia__________________(1979 ~ 1989)
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan__________________(1978 to 1992) (later known as the Republic of Afghanistan)
People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (South Yemen)__ (1967 to 1990)
Ethiopian People's Democratic Republic_______________(1974 to 1991)
People's Republic of Benin_________________________(1975 to 1990)
People's Republic of Angola________________________(1975 to 1992)
People's Republic of the Congo_____________________ (1969 to 1991)
People's Republic of Mozambique____________________(1975 to 1990)
Somali Democratic Republic________________________(1969 to 1991)
The Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya_____ (1951 to 2011) (Not recognized as a socialist country by global mainstream opinions)

Only a few lucky survivors.

The People's Republic of China______________________(1949 to present)
Democratic People's Republic of Korea________________(1948 to present)
The Socialist Republic of Vietnam____________________(1945 to present)
Lao People's Democratic Republic____________________(1975 to present)
The Republic of Cuba_____________________________(1961 to present)
The Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka__________(1948 to present) (Not recognized as a socialist country by global mainstream opinions)

None of those are doing really well though, outside of China. North Korea especially has issues (people starving...) and South Korea isn't at all Communist.

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  So many people inside and outside these communist countries might very likely draw the following conclusions:

Pure communism is impossible because people are naturally born with different gifts and characteristics.
Pure communism is impracticable because it demands absolute equality in every aspects. How ridiculous !
Pure communism is immoral, because without the sense of private property (privacy), what are we going to do with our families? Sharing husbands, wives and children? Horrible !
Pure communism is a very naive he theory of communism.In fact, you can use it, a lot of contradictory joke.
Pure communism is fundamentally flawed. Because it doesn't take humanity (particularly the grey and dark sides) into consideration.

I think many who think communism and socialism is exactly what has been described above will get satisfied. Since there has been a lot of words, particularly for those tl/nr guys, I suggest if you feel satisfied already, end reading this post here, and take some rest. Because the following are for those interested in what I, an ordinary human being, an ordinary Chinese citizen and a junior communist member have to say.

Secondly, the theory part.

What is Communism?

Communism is the political belief that a social status will ultimately be realized ,where private property rights are not needed, where there is no need for any religion, any moral ideas for inequality and any kind of currency, where there is no class systems, no governments and nations, and where people work together in massive scales with incredible efficiency, and where the working people have whatever they need. This social status will be realized when everybody has a very high sense of the intrinsic need for working and contributing, a very high sense of collaboration, a very high sense and a profound understanding of collectivism that the benefit of all mankind is above personal interests, and especially when the productivity is really high (possibly higher that our current imaginations).

Since there has never been a communist society. Let's go on.

What is Scientific Socialism?

Scientific Socialism, one of Marx's and Engels's main theories, is the political belief that capitalism came because of the advancement of productivity, and therefore will disappear and get replaced by another social system as the productivity keeps advancing. Means of production is publicly owned other that private property. Working people, who have no possession of those means of production, participate in socialized production activities. People enjoy freedom in all reasonable aspects and to the entirety. Nations will naturally disappear, leaving organizations for the sole purpose for making people's lives better and advancing productivity further and further more.

Don't ask me what the different is between a communist society and a scientific socialist society, because there has never been a full-level scientific socialist society.

What is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics?

Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is an official ideology of the Communist Party of China (CPC) based upon scientific socialism. This ideology supports the creation of a socialist market economy dominated by the public sector since China is in the primary stage of socialism. The Chinese government maintains that it has not abandoned Marxism, but has simply developed many of the terms and concepts of Marxist theory to accommodate its new economic system. The CPC argues that socialism is compatible with these economic policies. In current Chinese Communist thinking, China is in the primary stage of socialism, and this view allows the Chinese government to undertake more flexible economic policies to develop into an industrialized nation.

What is Democracy?

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows eligible citizens to participate equally -- either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

What is Republicanism?

Republicanism is the ideology of governing a society or state as a republic, where the head of state is appointed by means other than heredity, often through elections. The exact meaning of republicanism varies depending on the cultural and historical context. The term "republic" may indicate 'rule by many people and by law', as opposed to monarchy, or arbitrary rule by one person. Republicanism existed as an identifiable movement in the Roman Republic, where the founder of the Republic, Lucius Junius Brutus denounced the former Roman Kingdom and had the Roman people declare a solemn oath to never allow a monarchy to return again.

What an effort it was ...

Thirdly, the answer part.

With all the context provided, I am glad that I now answer your questions, if you are still interested.

(01-04-2013 05:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  How does Communism allow for freedom of the individual, including property rights? The idea is common ownership of the means of production, but that's difficult to achieve without reducing or restricting an individual's right to acquire and own property (land would be means of production - agriculture, as would any vehicle - taxicab, etc).

Never met a communist society (could be no communist nation by definition) before, so I don't know how. Yet I am happy to reason and guess a little bit.

If in a highly advanced society there still were taxicabs, and if someone just loves a driving taxicab both as an ardor and as choice he thinks as his best effort for the participation in the socialized mass production. Well he will get a taxicab from folks who just loves building these vehicles. And he can drive to destinations those people who just love making taxicab drivers fulfilled.

How do you get people to work in sewage or other jobs that no same person would do? Everything divided equally, they could choose anything else and get the same results (assuming work is required). Assigning people to jobs gets very close to '1984' and would be difficult...

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 05:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Do you feel that China is a purely Communist nation? From what I know of China, they've largely moved away from pure Communism, allowing for a large amount of capitalism - with only select industries/companies controlled directly by the government. 

There is no pure communist nation by definition. There isn't full-level socialist nation by definition.

So China is not a pure communist nation. And she is in the primary stage of (scientific) socialism.

(01-04-2013 05:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Also, as there is no democracy (by definition), how is government control of industries and companies "common ownership of the means of production", since it is apparently anything but? It appears more like "government ownership of the means of production" since the commoner has little to no say in how they are used or what government "represents" them.

China has a nationwide level-by-level election every five years. The nation-level representatives then elect the chairman (president) of China, which position has never been passed down in heredity . These representatives regularly meet to propose, develop and create laws. I voted in such elections. So democracy or not, up to you.

The public (government maybe) owned the land and significant proportions of shares of companies in economic sectors of national lifelines.

Sounds like democracy, but I'm beginning to wonder where the Communism comes into play Tongue

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 05:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  What do you say to the complete failure of so many nations that were indeed Communist (USSR, Cuba, N. Korea, etc)? What about East vs. West Germany, where the Communists had to build a wall to keep their people in, as the people obviously did not desire to live there?

Complete failure? Why were Westerners once so nervous about USSR, Cuba etc., and now about China that declared to rise peacefully?

Because they were militarily strong at one point and were trying to gain strength and territory around the world. Cuba was only a concern because of ties to the USSR - by themselves, they were not a threat. The USSR doesn't exist anymore, aka they completely failed.

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  I mentioned the horrible deeds in part one. These failed countries were so ossified that they couldn't change. And according to Marx's theory, matter is in constant motion and changes. These failed countries just can stay put, pretending nothing had happened. So if they wouldn't change themselves, then they were meant to be overthrown and changed by others.

As for the wall thing, an obvious reason that people wanted to go to places with better conditions. But on the other hand, like an story between Jimmy Carter and DENG Xiaoping I used in a previous post , "how many do you want? Is 10 million a year OK?"

It is the U.S. now that build high walls with heavy doors to keep immigrants out.Smile

I find better conditions for the average person to be the #1 concern, not sure how East Germany could have ever been considered superior given the people preferred West Germany (primary difference being the government)...

(01-04-2013 11:15 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 07:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  No country in world history has ever been a true pure communist country. Pure communism is simply not workable.

Indeed none in history.

Workable or not? Not in the past. Not now. Not likely in the near future. In a thousand year? As a communist, I ponder over it a little and say 'might be, hopefully'.

(01-04-2013 07:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Those that support communism are almost always poor/lower economic class because they are the ones that stand to profit from communism. Ironic really that poor people demand communism because "of the greed of the rich", yet they want communism because it means they gain... The middle income/class and rich income/class are subject to lose greatly.

Theoretically communism never happened, therefore maybe is not a good subject to blame upon.

When people overturned the feudalistic monarchy and aristocracy in the capitalistic revolutions, they condemned 'the greed of the monarch and aristocrats' and they gained. Monarchs and aristocrats lost greatly, often also their lives.

Smile Said that jokingly. But that's human nature, which seems hard to change.

(01-04-2013 07:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  This is why America was EXTREMELY anti-communism during the last century (and still is), because the majority of Americans are middle class citizens and stand to lose from communism.

After what I explained above, you should be relaxed by now.

And thanks to you adorable American middle class people, Senator McCarthy was quite famous and powerful. Many are still making gains and profits by threatening you adorable American middle class people.

As for the rich people, they already have been making a fortune by setting up sweatshops in 'communist' China for a long long time.

(01-04-2013 07:41 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Communism gives very little incentive to take risks and create something novel, since the reward for that will very likely be taken by the state (or definitely will, under pure communism).

The way in which capitalism and democracy come along is also messy and bloody.

There's an old saying in China.

You get full after three bowls of rice. It's not right if you only praise the third one and blame the first two bowls as unnecessary waste.

Failure is the mother of success.

Worth mentioning:

(01-04-2013 07:41 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  some of my questions were *somewhat* rhetorical in that I was kind of poking the bear.

I am no bear. And I answered all your good questions.

If you loves poking, do it gently please.

[Construction complete]

lol - it's a movie reference (Dr. Doolittle).

Thanks - I appreciate the honesty. Given a different world, the ideals of Communism (egalitarianism) would be nice, but I don't see it ever working due to the self interested nature of humans, limited resources and difficulty of incentivising people to create. I would lose out significantly, for one. Global average GDP per capita is only about $12.5k - so, significantly below the poverty line in the US.

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03-04-2013, 01:06 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(02-04-2013 08:33 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  lol - it's a movie reference (Dr. Doolittle).

Thanks - I appreciate the honesty. Given a different world, the ideals of Communism (egalitarianism) would be nice, but I don't see it ever working due to the self interested nature of humans, limited resources and difficulty of incentivising people to create. I would lose out significantly, for one. Global average GDP per capita is only about $12.5k - so, significantly below the poverty line in the US.

I guarantee that you can relax if you really worry about your belongings being redistributed by egalitarianism commands.

I said a few times in this thread, that when communism comes, we will be so rich rich rich that the concept of private property wouldn't be needed any more.

After so many failed examples, communist (socialist) people already become realistic. So now communism is more like a good hope, or even Sci-Fi if you like.Yes

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03-04-2013, 01:06 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Yet as for North Korea, I really don't know what to say.

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