Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
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26-05-2013, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2013 01:16 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Once someone has said that they accept these things happened, they accept they were bad but don't feel like they had a role in it... what else is there for him to say? In fact, most specific topics you could bring up I think he has already addressed to some extent in this long thread. How about rephrasing like this:

"Junyuan, particularly during the time of Mao there were problems that have been widely reported in the West such as starvation for many, and the killing of teachers, intellectuals, and others. Do you feel like China has moved on from there? Do you still see oppression and problem in China that you feel comfortable talking about?

Some of the things that are discussed in Western media include:
* Forced abortions and heavy-handed application of the one child policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_abor...c_of_China
* Apparent oppression of Falun Gong members (although I think you already discussed this earlier in the thread): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
* Apparent restriction of religious freedom in Tibet (also something you have discussed already), the mass migration of Han Chinese to populate the area, and increasing travel restrictions between Tibet and its non-Chinese neighbours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet
* Problems during the great leap forward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
* Government corruption (again you've already talked about this)

Do you accept these things have happened and in some cases are still happening? Is the reporting accurate, do you think? Do you think problems like these are getting better or worse? How do you think these problems compare to problems outside of China? What's your view of the US, the UK, and other western powers and their current and historical relations with China? What's your view on Japan (already discussed), North Korea (already discussed)" etc.

Here's my understanding roughly of what Junyuan has already said (please correct me if I put words into your mouth falsely):
* Being a member of the communist party is like joining your local Rotary club. It has its benefits, but doesn't imply much about what you are specifically likely to believe or do outside of club activities.
* Communism is thought of in China as something that makes sense in a post-scarcity economy, and since the time of the well respected Deng Xiaoping China has been moving towards a position of great wealth and towards a post-scarcity economy using capitalism as a stepping stone. True communism (aka Star Trek) is probably centuries away.
* Bad things happened in the transition from where China was when it won independence and where China is today. Some bad things continue to happen, but things are getting much better. Democracy would be nice, but with such a large country and diverse people it is necessary to get everyone invested a little more in the overall political system and the one China before such a thing can be contemplated seriously. Until the leadership understand what a democratic China would look like they aren't ready to risk making the switch. Instead, they'll work on building up institutions that may one day support a democratic system. For now, centralised control and power is necessary and it has proven itself beneficial in the implementation of reforms over the rapid change of the last 30 years.
* On Tibet - bad things might be happening, but they were probably also happening under the theocracy that was ousted by the Chinese. Chinese integrity continues to remain important to Chinese economics and ultimately to dreams of democracy and freedom.
* On Falun Gong - It's a dangerous cult and such things should at least be closely monitored by government.
* On government corruption - It exists. It's bad. We're fixing it.
* On Japan - There's some seriously bad blood here, and we feel like they're pouring salt into the wound with recent government recognition of Japanese soldiers, war graves, etc.
* On other foreign powers - The pre-revolutionary days were days of oppression and hardship for the Chinese people. The west conspired to keep china poor, keep China starving, and keep China stoned on opium. All for the sake of tea, silk, and a few spices. There's a hell of a lot for the west to make up to China and if you don't know that you'd bloody better swot up on your history. You think the time since the overthrow of the last emperor was bad? You should have seen what you bastards were doing before then. Don't you dare try to put China down while it's dealing with internal problems and struggles and getting back on her feet. Who do you think you are to tell the Chinese how to run China, when you don't even know us?
(I might be adding a little more forcefulness and emphasis than Junyuan would add himself)

Overall on behalf of the West I would say that much of the advice that the West seems to be giving to China is not borne out of disrespect but out of a shared history... that the west has dealt with many of the problems China deals with now, and when we express what we think China should and should not be doing it is often from shame that we didn't deal with the same problems better ourselves. We destroyed cultures that were precious and worth saving. We oppressed freedoms. We let people starve to death. We've invaded and killed for profit. We've invaded and killed in the name of nationalism and the integrity of our borders. When we read our own history we look back on a bloody past, and one we regret many chapters of. We don't always find good ways to express our concerns, and sometimes China really is used as an international scape goat and is unfairly targeted... but for the most part we express our concerns out of our own shame and out of our hope that our mistakes will not be repeated.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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26-05-2013, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2013 07:48 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Thank you Hafnof. I agree to the points you've summarized from my past posts, which may be over a hundred. And this is some serious efforts. And I also very much appreciate the reflections in the last paragraph.

Yet why am I here starting and continuing a thread about an very ordinary Chinese communist, which has already seemed to some people here as sensational, exaggerated, provoking, sophistry, potentially governmental and deceiving on purpose? To throw a stone into the pond for fun? To express my anger towards the western civilizations?

NO.

I said I am here to answer questions interesting to me, and to provide information that may be interesting to the people who asked these questions. I am here to seek common grounds with people on this forum, and set aside our disagreements, if possible.

Is it fair enough according to the common sense?

Hafnof, it is this kind of information and efforts you've provided that is worth my time and efforts, which is somewhat still not easy to me and I am improving my English. And I hope that I am able to provide interesting information to you too, and our conversations do good to the both of us.

(26-05-2013 12:56 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  "Junyuan, particularly during the time of Mao there were problems that have been widely reported in the West such as starvation for many, and the killing of teachers, intellectuals, and others. Do you feel like China has moved on from there? Do you still see oppression and problem in China that you feel comfortable talking about?"

I think if we can put aside the issue of what the accurate scale is, I agree with most of these reports by western journalists that the starvation for astonishingly many, and the killings, humiliation, torment and imprisonment of teachers, intellectuals, scholars, thinkers and others existed during the time of Mao, especially in the late 50's, 60's and 70's, which I talked about quite a few times in my previous posts and as you've already summarized. I think the majority of that was totally unnecessary. And Mao should undoubtedly be mainly responsible for this because judging from the results he obviously neglected his duty as the head of the party and state. By today's standards, he should have been removed from his post and faced with investigation processes.

It is no excuse, yet I still greatly admire the achievements and contributions Mao has made to the well-being of the Chinese people, to the communist party of China, to this country who is trying to stand up on her feet again, and to the socialism philosophy.

And yes, China has moved on from there. The distance should be able to be seen by the whole world.

People in China are not able to express their opinions (especially disagreement and discontent) as free as people in western countries like USA, Britain, France, Germany and so on. But there are laws regarding to which extent free speech should be, if the dissidents break the laws, they should pay a reasonable price. If they think a law is bad, they should expose it and press the congress to change it, shouldn't they?

There are journalists in China reporting about those who have been wronged and those what the government has done wrong. I heard about a such case on TV yesterday that the provincial high court refuses to launch a re-investigation into a murder case in which the convicted suspect who has been claiming that he is innocent is still in jail under the life sentence, while a convicted murderer was executed nine years ago, who claimed in his dying wishes that he actually killed the victim and the public should clear the former's name. And it is part of the public supervision system that the media in Wuhan, a mega-metropolis and a provincial capital in central China, are encouraged by the government to expose those government officials who have done their job poorly, and then the local government will investigate and provide explanations or fire incompetent officials. So yes, things are getting better.

I see barely little oppression from 1989 on, and I see what happened in 1989 as a necessary operation but an unnecessary conflict that the government handled in an extremely wrong way. But I do see reports about crackdowns on religious extremists, rioters and cult believers. And I do consider Fa Lungong practitioners as cult believers and should face justice once they break the laws.

I talked about religious freedom with DLJ. Like in Singapore, religious people can live their own ways of lives in the approved religious sites as long as they don't break the laws. In fact Muslims in cities and towns actually receive subsidies from the government to aid them to buy halal meat which is expensive because of its scarcity. And I think that is a discrimination against the non-Muslims.

Finally, I've never seen an organized migration to Tibet myself in the cities. But if the government was planning to migrate me to Tibet, how bad my conditions must be for me to agree not to stay at a place closer to the more prosperous regions of China! If my conditions were that bad, why shouldn't I move to Tibet?

I feel comfortable to answer your questions. Hence these overly lengthy answers.

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26-05-2013, 09:51 PM
Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Junyuan, if I may say, I believe your English is quite good. How long have you been studying?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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26-05-2013, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2013 11:13 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(26-05-2013 09:51 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Junyuan, if I may say, I believe your English is quite good. How long have you been studying?

It's been 20 years since my first English lesson on which vowel phonetic symbols was taught at my home, when I was 10. My mom is an middle school English language teacher, now retired. And after she taught me the phonetic symbols, she let me study the English language all by myself (of course I attend middle school, high school and university, and there were also English lessons), which may be the key that I have preserved my passion for this language and kept the eagerness to use it to communicate with interesting people afar.

Now that I have chosen to become a professional translator for people who speak Chinese or English and want to communicate with each other, I see that there's still a very large room for my improvement of using this interesting language.

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27-05-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
So what's the Chinese perspective on this fat fucking vulgar hairless talking monkey genius: Ai Weiwei. I can read the Western perspective from Wikipedia but would like to hear the PRC's side.

Thanks,
Yours in Girly

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-05-2013, 07:28 PM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2013 10:26 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(27-05-2013 02:32 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So what's the Chinese perspective on this fat fucking vulgar hairless talking monkey genius: Ai Weiwei. I can read the Western perspective from Wikipedia but would like to hear the PRC's side.

Thanks,
Yours in Girly

I read the Wiki link you gave me and searched things about him in a Chinese search engine. There are many details about him, of which I don't know in what aspect you are be interested in. So I will talk about he in general.

I heard about his name, Ai Weiwei, a few times. And when I saw this today in your question, I was wondering who the stranger was but whose name wasn't totally unfamiliar to me.

He is an artist. I took a glimpse at his major accomplishments on the web. I am not impressed by his works, except the National Stadium, the Birds' Nest, in which project he was the artistic consultant of the construction corporation which had won the bidding. Oh, I was mistaken, he isn't one of the designers of the Birds' Nest. So I am not impressed by most of his works as an artist. And I am wondering whether he could be called an performance artist, some works of which kind of art seems a little disturbing to me.

He is also active in social events. I don't know whether being a political activist is also his profession. But I don't see much he has accomplished in this aspect. I mean I don't see many earthquake victims he helped out, many charity activities he helped to hold, many governmental policies and laws he helped to modify using his influence, or many practical accomplishments or suggestions that can improve the quality of people's lives. Actually I see very few such things, close to none.

What did he do when he was at the 2008 8.0 Wenchuan earthquake zone? He counted corpses. Again, I don't feel that good about some performance arts.

But from Wiki, his story looks somewhat different. On Wiki, he is an artist with achievements in various areas and was on the Power 100 List of 2011 of the magazine ArtReview. He is also a political activist, highly and openly critical of the Chinese government's stance on democracy and human rights, and has been held for two months without any official charges being filed.

A well recognized contemporary artist with a conscience, a genius dissident who risks his career and life crying out loud against governmental corruptness and violation of democracy and human rights, and actually has been detained. Well this kind of image of oppressed dissidents or "public intellectuals" impresses me no more, since this image is so "standard" now, and there are many of them in China, so many that I have grown tired of, and in my opinion this is a professional position with too many job candidates.

If he had sued the government for illegal detention and asked for state compensation, that could have done me some good, who is also one of the people whose human rights he has been sticking up for. Well, unfortunate for me, he hasn't done that yet and it's been 2 years. Why? Afraid of losing the lawsuit? Afraid of oppression from the government? I have no idea. But I think he has just missed an opportunity when he could have actually accomplished something good for one of the Chinese people.

You know why I don't like some politicians, I don't like their way, always pointing at, or even exaggerating, the problems yet not able to provide practical solutions and have those problems actually solved.

So, quite some Chinese like Ai Weiwei, while many others don't.

I don't like him.

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27-05-2013, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2013 10:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(27-05-2013 07:28 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  I am not impressed by his works, ...

Thanks HU, your response deserves a deliberation and consideration that will take me a few days to digest (there's a lot of good shit to chew on in there). In the meantime, I find myself greatly impressed by his works. Big Grin

[Image: aiweiwei.jpg]

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-05-2013, 07:04 AM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(27-05-2013 08:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  In the meantime, I find myself greatly impressed by his works. Big Grin

[Image: aiweiwei.jpg]

Yeah. That censor-sheep held by his left wing protecting his private part from being exposed really looks awesome.

I am kinda impressed by now.

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28-05-2013, 06:18 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2013 06:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(28-05-2013 07:04 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(27-05-2013 08:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  In the meantime, I find myself greatly impressed by his works. Big Grin

Yeah. That censor-sheep held by his left wing protecting his private part from being exposed really looks awesome.

I am kinda impressed by now.

That's what I like. I find his art accessible, I can get it. It's out front and in your face. There's no artsy fartsy hidden meaning that only the privileged few are privvy to. Smile

(27-05-2013 07:28 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  What did he do when he was at the 2008 8.0 Wenchuan earthquake zone? He counted corpses.

The Wiki page indicates that his motivation here was to bring attention to the shoddy construction of schoolhouses which he felt led to the deaths of thousands of school children from the earthquake by compiling a list of their names. That doesn't seem as banal as just "counting corpses" to me. ... On the other hand, 8.0 is a bigass earthquake. It's bigger than any the USA has experienced outside of Alaska. Wouldn't surprise me if the damage to a typical US city wouldn't be just as bad.

But he certainly is a rabble-rouser. Apparently his title for that self-portrait of "grass horse covering the middle" sounds almost the same in Chinese as "Fuck your mother, the Communist party central committee". Yeah, that's some rabble-rousing right there.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-05-2013, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2013 10:59 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(28-05-2013 06:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The Wiki page indicates that his motivation here was to bring attention to the shoddy construction of schoolhouses which he felt led to the deaths of thousands of school children from the earthquake by compiling a list of their names. That doesn't seem as banal as just "counting corpses" to me. ...

Shoddy construction of schoolhouses should never go unnoticed and definitely deserves public attention. Not only the schoolhouses, there was also this teacher who abandoned his students and did nothing else but ran for his life ...

And according to my memory, in 2008, after the earthquake there were pretty many media attention focused on the collapsed schoolhouses and students buried under the ruins. So, his way of calling public attention is somewhat ... peculiar.

After reading about his deeds in 2008, I can't remember the names in his lists, but clearly I remember his name. So no wonder his actions were referred to by his peers as crematory performance arts, which should be regarded as one of his "works" and therefore in favor of the artist at the first place.


(28-05-2013 06:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  But he certainly is a rabble-rouser. Apparently his title for that self-portrait of "grass horse covering the middle" sounds almost the same in Chinese as "Fuck your mother, the Communist party central committee". Yeah, that's some rabble-rousing right there.

"Covering the middle" is pun (pronounced the same) to "party central committee". So yes, he showed his contempt to the governmental cover-ups he claimed. It would have lost the pleasure of pun if he had showed his opinion in plain and serious language ... OK, he is a performance artist, and we should always forgive certain performance artists if they suddenly behave in interesting ways, shouldn't we?

Judging from the critical position he covered as the "party central committee", does it mean that he actually subconsciously consider the "party central committee" as vitally important to men and necessary to pass on from generation to generation? (puns on intention Smile)

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