Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
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05-09-2013, 07:49 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 07:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Where do you get stateless? It is up to the place one wants to reside whether one can reside there permanently - it has nothing to do with the U.S.

It says so right in the very link that you provided to travel.state.gov:

"Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless... Renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status."

If you were an American, and you were opposed to supporting the US war efforts and decided you wanted to live in Brazil, the only way you would be let out of the system and not forced to continue supporting the US's wars would be to go to a US embassy and renounce your citizenship. At that point you have to liquidate all your assets, pay an exit tax, and you will be stateless. Brazil isn't going to give you citizenship and a passport. You'll be in a state of limbo. However, it's a political mess when US citizens renounce their citizenship and become stateless since then UN conventions on stateless refugees are invoked, so it's a fact that in most cases the US will not allow you to renounce your citizenship.

Then you would be stupid to renounce citizenship in that case.

The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

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05-09-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Quote:The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

First, that's not true. The US lists what countries Americans are and are not allowed to take up residency in. For example, Cuba is banned.

Second, you state that "there is not any restriction by the U.S. on [emigrating]". But you also don't dispute that if you do emigrate, you are required to report back to Uncle Sam where you are, what you do, send in your foreign banking and credit card details, report all property you have, and report every transaction you own, and surrender everything to the US which will decide how much it will keep and how much it will let you live on. That's not a "restriction"? If I told you could leave my house ONLY if you agreed to do all those things, you wouldn't say that was a "restriction"?

Remember, because US law is different than all free countries and US citizens are subject to US laws regardless of whether or not they live in the US, all Congress has to do to recall all Americans is state there is now a 99.9% income tax on foreign-earned income with no deduction for foreign taxes paid. Americans abroad wouldn't even be able to buy food and would have no choice but to return. In the rest of the world it's a completely different system. The rest of the world bases it's obligations on RESIDENCY -- not on CITIZENSHIP. So if you don't like the rules, you're free to leave.

Remember, I explained in the original post that there are only 3 countries that if you are born in their country (ie have citizenship) then you are obligated for your whole life to support and obey your home country: North Korea, Cuba and the US. The only thing that's different with the US is that the US being a military superpower is able to bring back any citizens who refuse to comply. So the US does allow you to physically leave because, if you don't comply with the rules, the US can force you to be extradited back (like happened with Bobby Fischer). But the only reason North Korea and Cuba don't also allow their citizens to physically leave is simply that they lack the power to force compliance once they're gone.

So, I stand by my statement that in every country except N Korea, Cuba and the US, if you do not like what your country is doing and no longer want to support your country, you can leave with no restrictions at all. Find me an example of one other country in the world, besides those 3, that bases it's obligations on its people on CITIZENSHIP rather than RESIDENCY.
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05-09-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:07 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

First, that's not true. The US lists what countries Americans are and are not allowed to take up residency in. For example, Cuba is banned.

No, it's not.

Quote:Second, you state that "there is not any restriction by the U.S. on [emigrating]". But you also don't dispute that if you do emigrate, you are required to report back to Uncle Sam where you are, what you do, send in your foreign banking and credit card details, report all property you have, and report every transaction you own, and surrender everything to the US which will decide how much it will keep and how much it will let you live on. That's not a "restriction"? If I told you could leave my house ONLY if you agreed to do all those things, you wouldn't say that was a "restriction"?

You are confusing U.S. citizens living abroad with permanent emigration. Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. jurisdiction except for prior claims. See here.

Quote:Remember, because US law is different than all free countries and US citizens are subject to US laws regardless of whether or not they live in the US, all Congress has to do to recall all Americans is state there is now a 99.9% income tax on foreign-earned income with no deduction for foreign taxes paid. Americans abroad wouldn't even be able to buy food and would have no choice but to return. In the rest of the world it's a completely different system. The rest of the world bases it's obligations on RESIDENCY -- not on CITIZENSHIP. So if you don't like the rules, you're free to leave.

See previous link. You are misinformed.

Quote:Remember, I explained in the original post that there are only 3 countries that if you are born in their country (ie have citizenship) then you are obligated for your whole life to support and obey your home country: North Korea, Cuba and the US. The only thing that's different with the US is that the US being a military superpower is able to bring back any citizens who refuse to comply. So the US does allow you to physically leave because, if you don't comply with the rules, the US can force you to be extradited back (like happened with Bobby Fischer). But the only reason North Korea and Cuba don't also allow their citizens to physically leave is simply that they lack the power to force compliance once they're gone.

So, I stand by my statement that in every country except N Korea, Cuba and the US, if you do not like what your country is doing and no longer want to support your country, you can leave with no restrictions at all. Find me an example of one other country in the world, besides those 3, that bases it's obligations on its people on CITIZENSHIP rather than RESIDENCY.

Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.

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05-09-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
@chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? Every link you posted supports my position and refutes yours. I told you that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba without explicit permission (a license) from the government, which is only granted in special cases and never just because an American wants to go there. Beyonce and Jay-Z, btw, got a license for a cultural exchange. You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.


How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

You say “Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.” But all you've done is give links that prove exactly what I said. Give me one link that states that US citizens are allowed to exit the US system and terminate their obligations to the US by giving up their US residence, and not renouncing their citizenship.
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05-09-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? Every link you posted supports my position and refutes yours. I told you that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba without explicit permission (a license) from the government, which is only granted in special cases and never just because an American wants to go there. Beyonce and Jay-Z, btw, got a license for a cultural exchange. You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.


How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

You say “Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.” But all you've done is give links that prove exactly what I said. Give me one link that states that US citizens are allowed to exit the US system and terminate their obligations to the US by giving up their US residence, and not renouncing their citizenship.

Read the IRS publication referenced. Once you are a "covered expatriate" you are no longer subject to U.S. taxes.

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05-09-2013, 08:47 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? ... You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

This is evidently a semantic issue. Let us proceed:

the US government Wrote:The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.

(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Travel-related transactions must be licensed. That is not a ban. It's pretty plain English.

(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

If one chooses to give up one citizenship without holding another, one has only oneself to blame for lack of foresight. That the United States will let you do so is not the point. I might reiterate here that one cannot renounce Canadian citizenship without holding another recognized citizenship.

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05-09-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Quote:Read the IRS publication referenced. Once you are a "covered expatriate" you are no longer subject to U.S. taxes.

No This is almost comical. Read again what "covered expatriate" means. Expatriation in the US definition _IS_ the act of renouncing your citizenship. It says so right at the top of the page! The whole page is about what happens when you renounce your citizenship. "Covered expatriate" refers to someone who renounces his citizenship and has more than a certain amount of money. If you don't have much money when you renounce your citizenship, you are not a "covered expatriate". If you do, then you are subject to all sorts of additional penalties because the government doesn't care as much if a poor person leaves, but they want to make sure a rich person cannot escape.

Copy and paste, please, whatever you read on that page that led you to believe Americans can simply give up US residency, without renouncing their citizenship, and no longer be subject to U.S. taxes.

You're not reading what you're posting, and you're totally confused. Everything on that page just proves exactly what I said all along, that there are significant barriers to exiting the US system.
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05-09-2013, 08:56 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Quote:Travel-related transactions must be licensed. That is not a ban. It's pretty plain English.

Read the whole thing. It says travel-related transactions must be licensed AND then it says: "Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable". In other words, if go there as a tourist, rather than on a sanctioned government trip (like Beyonce did), you cannot get a license. And it then explains that if you go without a license you will be subject to criminal prosecution on your return.

I agree it's pretty plain English. If you want to visit Cuba, you need a license, and the license will never be granted except for sanctioned government trips, and if you go anyway, you'll be prosecuted and possibly imprisoned.

Again, let's say I told you this as a person. I said @cjlr, if you want to go to McDonald's, you need a license from me. And I will not grant you the license unless you are going to McDonald's on a mission that I sanction (like getting me a hamburger). And if you go to McDonald's without a license, I will haul you off at gunpoint and lock you in a cell. Are you seriously going to say that does not fit the definition of a "ban"??? Is that a joke?
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05-09-2013, 08:59 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:49 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Read the IRS publication referenced. Once you are a "covered expatriate" you are no longer subject to U.S. taxes.

No This is almost comical. Read again what "covered expatriate" means. Expatriation in the US definition _IS_ the act of renouncing your citizenship. It says so right at the top of the page! The whole page is about what happens when you renounce your citizenship. "Covered expatriate" refers to someone who renounces his citizenship and has more than a certain amount of money. If you don't have much money when you renounce your citizenship, you are not a "covered expatriate". If you do, then you are subject to all sorts of additional penalties because the government doesn't care as much if a poor person leaves, but they want to make sure a rich person cannot escape.

Copy and paste, please, whatever you read on that page that led you to believe Americans can simply give up US residency, without renouncing their citizenship, and no longer be subject to U.S. taxes.

You're not reading what you're posting, and you're totally confused. Everything on that page just proves exactly what I said all along, that there are significant barriers to exiting the US system.

I mistyped that. It should have been "Unless you are a 'covered expatriate'..."

If you don't have the defined wealth, then you don't pay. The document covers the rules under which there are taxes for expatriating wealth, not persons.

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05-09-2013, 09:02 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:56 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Travel-related transactions must be licensed. That is not a ban. It's pretty plain English.

Read the whole thing. It says travel-related transactions must be licensed AND then it says: "Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable". In other words, if go there as a tourist, rather than on a sanctioned government trip (like Beyonce did), you cannot get a license. And it then explains that if you go without a license you will be subject to criminal prosecution on your return.

I agree it's pretty plain English. If you want to visit Cuba, you need a license, and the license will never be granted except for sanctioned government trips, and if you go anyway, you'll be prosecuted and possibly imprisoned.

Again, let's say I told you this as a person. I said @cjlr, if you want to go to McDonald's, you need a license from me. And I will not grant you the license unless you are going to McDonald's on a mission that I sanction (like getting me a hamburger). And if you go to McDonald's without a license, I will haul you off at gunpoint and lock you in a cell. Are you seriously going to say that does not fit the definition of a "ban"??? Is that a joke?

But we're talking about leaving for good, not as a tourist. There is no return.

The U.S. attitude toward Cuba is not a sane one; the tantrum they threw over Castro in the 60's has been perpetuated far too long.

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