Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
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05-09-2013, 07:18 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
@Chas, it seems silly to me that you're arguing that Americans are in fact free to leave the US system at any time because "all" they need to do is simply renounce their citizenship, become stateless and thus unable to take up legal residence anywhere, and apply for refugee status under UN conventions for stateless persons.

My original claim was that "If the [country] does not put up any barriers preventing him from leaving, and he chooses to stay and voluntarily subjects himself to the rules of the [country], then he is free." You didn't dispute that assertion, but you're so adament on insisting that you were right and I was wrong that your argument is now that having to become stateless is not really a barrier to leaving.

Now, it seems the only thing you still disagree with me about is if having to renounce your citizenship and be stateless is a "barrier". I think your argument that it's not, and that any American who wants to do what you did and exit his country's system should simply become a stateless refugee.

So, then, here is a serious question: If, in order to leave the Canadian system like you did, you were forced to become stateless and live as a UN refugee, would you still have gone through with it and left? You seriously wouldn't have simply found that to be a pretty high barrier and resigned yourself to simply stay in the Canadian system your whole life?

That's a serious question I would like you to answer because unless you maintain that you wanted to leave the Canadian system so badly that becoming a stateless refugee would not be a barrier, that you would have renounced your Canadian citizenship in order to leave the Canadian system, then you are conceding the point I made in the very beginning, that the US, like North Korea and Cuba, _DOES_ put up effective barriers to block Americans from leaving the system, unlike Canada, China, and the rest of the world where people are free to leave anytime they want, with no restrictions or barriers at all.

Lastly, your whole premise that if I wanted to leave I could simply have renounced my citizenship isn't even factually accurate. It is up to the embassy, and in many cases, they do allow US citizens to become stateless, but in other cases where it would have created political fallout with the foreign country to have to take a stateless refugee, the US has denied it. That link you provided even says: "In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds". There are cases of Americans going to desperate measures to trying to escape, primarily to stop supporting US warmongering, and the US courts refusing to accept their renunciation and continuing to require they obey US law and support the US system.
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05-09-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 07:18 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @Chas, it seems silly to me that you're arguing that Americans are in fact free to leave the US system at any time because "all" they need to do is simply renounce their citizenship, become stateless and thus unable to take up legal residence anywhere, and apply for refugee status under UN conventions for stateless persons.

My original claim was that "If the [country] does not put up any barriers preventing him from leaving, and he chooses to stay and voluntarily subjects himself to the rules of the [country], then he is free." You didn't dispute that assertion, but you're so adament on insisting that you were right and I was wrong that your argument is now that having to become stateless is not really a barrier to leaving.

Now, it seems the only thing you still disagree with me about is if having to renounce your citizenship and be stateless is a "barrier". I think your argument that it's not, and that any American who wants to do what you did and exit his country's system should simply become a stateless refugee.

So, then, here is a serious question: If, in order to leave the Canadian system like you did, you were forced to become stateless and live as a UN refugee, would you still have gone through with it and left? You seriously wouldn't have simply found that to be a pretty high barrier and resigned yourself to simply stay in the Canadian system your whole life?

That's a serious question I would like you to answer because unless you maintain that you wanted to leave the Canadian system so badly that becoming a stateless refugee would not be a barrier, that you would have renounced your Canadian citizenship in order to leave the Canadian system, then you are conceding the point I made in the very beginning, that the US, like North Korea and Cuba, _DOES_ put up effective barriers to block Americans from leaving the system, unlike Canada, China, and the rest of the world where people are free to leave anytime they want, with no restrictions or barriers at all.

Lastly, your whole premise that if I wanted to leave I could simply have renounced my citizenship isn't even factually accurate. It is up to the embassy, and in many cases, they do allow US citizens to become stateless, but in other cases where it would have created political fallout with the foreign country to have to take a stateless refugee, the US has denied it. That link you provided even says: "In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds". There are cases of Americans going to desperate measures to trying to escape, primarily to stop supporting US warmongering, and the US courts refusing to accept their renunciation and continuing to require they obey US law and support the US system.

Where do you get stateless? It is up to the place one wants to reside whether one can reside there permanently - it has nothing to do with the U.S.

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05-09-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Quote:Where do you get stateless? It is up to the place one wants to reside whether one can reside there permanently - it has nothing to do with the U.S.

It says so right in the very link that you provided to travel.state.gov:

"Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless... Renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status."

If you were an American, and you were opposed to supporting the US war efforts and decided you wanted to live in Brazil, the only way you would be let out of the system and not forced to continue supporting the US's wars would be to go to a US embassy and renounce your citizenship. At that point you have to liquidate all your assets, pay an exit tax, and you will be stateless. Brazil isn't going to give you citizenship and a passport. You'll be in a state of limbo. However, it's a political mess when US citizens renounce their citizenship and become stateless since then UN conventions on stateless refugees are invoked, so it's a fact that in most cases the US will not allow you to renounce your citizenship.
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05-09-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 07:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Where do you get stateless? It is up to the place one wants to reside whether one can reside there permanently - it has nothing to do with the U.S.

It says so right in the very link that you provided to travel.state.gov:

"Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless... Renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status."

If you were an American, and you were opposed to supporting the US war efforts and decided you wanted to live in Brazil, the only way you would be let out of the system and not forced to continue supporting the US's wars would be to go to a US embassy and renounce your citizenship. At that point you have to liquidate all your assets, pay an exit tax, and you will be stateless. Brazil isn't going to give you citizenship and a passport. You'll be in a state of limbo. However, it's a political mess when US citizens renounce their citizenship and become stateless since then UN conventions on stateless refugees are invoked, so it's a fact that in most cases the US will not allow you to renounce your citizenship.

Which is not a concern, should one qualify for another citizenship prior to renouncing citizenship of the United States...

One can only renounce Canadian citizenship, as it happens, if one has already, or is guaranteed to have, citizenship in another recognized jurisdiction.

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05-09-2013, 07:49 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 07:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Where do you get stateless? It is up to the place one wants to reside whether one can reside there permanently - it has nothing to do with the U.S.

It says so right in the very link that you provided to travel.state.gov:

"Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless... Renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status."

If you were an American, and you were opposed to supporting the US war efforts and decided you wanted to live in Brazil, the only way you would be let out of the system and not forced to continue supporting the US's wars would be to go to a US embassy and renounce your citizenship. At that point you have to liquidate all your assets, pay an exit tax, and you will be stateless. Brazil isn't going to give you citizenship and a passport. You'll be in a state of limbo. However, it's a political mess when US citizens renounce their citizenship and become stateless since then UN conventions on stateless refugees are invoked, so it's a fact that in most cases the US will not allow you to renounce your citizenship.

Then you would be stupid to renounce citizenship in that case.

The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

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05-09-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
Quote:The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

First, that's not true. The US lists what countries Americans are and are not allowed to take up residency in. For example, Cuba is banned.

Second, you state that "there is not any restriction by the U.S. on [emigrating]". But you also don't dispute that if you do emigrate, you are required to report back to Uncle Sam where you are, what you do, send in your foreign banking and credit card details, report all property you have, and report every transaction you own, and surrender everything to the US which will decide how much it will keep and how much it will let you live on. That's not a "restriction"? If I told you could leave my house ONLY if you agreed to do all those things, you wouldn't say that was a "restriction"?

Remember, because US law is different than all free countries and US citizens are subject to US laws regardless of whether or not they live in the US, all Congress has to do to recall all Americans is state there is now a 99.9% income tax on foreign-earned income with no deduction for foreign taxes paid. Americans abroad wouldn't even be able to buy food and would have no choice but to return. In the rest of the world it's a completely different system. The rest of the world bases it's obligations on RESIDENCY -- not on CITIZENSHIP. So if you don't like the rules, you're free to leave.

Remember, I explained in the original post that there are only 3 countries that if you are born in their country (ie have citizenship) then you are obligated for your whole life to support and obey your home country: North Korea, Cuba and the US. The only thing that's different with the US is that the US being a military superpower is able to bring back any citizens who refuse to comply. So the US does allow you to physically leave because, if you don't comply with the rules, the US can force you to be extradited back (like happened with Bobby Fischer). But the only reason North Korea and Cuba don't also allow their citizens to physically leave is simply that they lack the power to force compliance once they're gone.

So, I stand by my statement that in every country except N Korea, Cuba and the US, if you do not like what your country is doing and no longer want to support your country, you can leave with no restrictions at all. Find me an example of one other country in the world, besides those 3, that bases it's obligations on its people on CITIZENSHIP rather than RESIDENCY.
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05-09-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:07 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:The point is that it is straightforward and legal for a U.S. citizen to emigrate from the U.S. There is not any restriction by the U.S. on doing so.

Once you have found a country to accept you as a permanent resident, you're free to stay there - Uncle Sam won't hold you.

First, that's not true. The US lists what countries Americans are and are not allowed to take up residency in. For example, Cuba is banned.

No, it's not.

Quote:Second, you state that "there is not any restriction by the U.S. on [emigrating]". But you also don't dispute that if you do emigrate, you are required to report back to Uncle Sam where you are, what you do, send in your foreign banking and credit card details, report all property you have, and report every transaction you own, and surrender everything to the US which will decide how much it will keep and how much it will let you live on. That's not a "restriction"? If I told you could leave my house ONLY if you agreed to do all those things, you wouldn't say that was a "restriction"?

You are confusing U.S. citizens living abroad with permanent emigration. Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. jurisdiction except for prior claims. See here.

Quote:Remember, because US law is different than all free countries and US citizens are subject to US laws regardless of whether or not they live in the US, all Congress has to do to recall all Americans is state there is now a 99.9% income tax on foreign-earned income with no deduction for foreign taxes paid. Americans abroad wouldn't even be able to buy food and would have no choice but to return. In the rest of the world it's a completely different system. The rest of the world bases it's obligations on RESIDENCY -- not on CITIZENSHIP. So if you don't like the rules, you're free to leave.

See previous link. You are misinformed.

Quote:Remember, I explained in the original post that there are only 3 countries that if you are born in their country (ie have citizenship) then you are obligated for your whole life to support and obey your home country: North Korea, Cuba and the US. The only thing that's different with the US is that the US being a military superpower is able to bring back any citizens who refuse to comply. So the US does allow you to physically leave because, if you don't comply with the rules, the US can force you to be extradited back (like happened with Bobby Fischer). But the only reason North Korea and Cuba don't also allow their citizens to physically leave is simply that they lack the power to force compliance once they're gone.

So, I stand by my statement that in every country except N Korea, Cuba and the US, if you do not like what your country is doing and no longer want to support your country, you can leave with no restrictions at all. Find me an example of one other country in the world, besides those 3, that bases it's obligations on its people on CITIZENSHIP rather than RESIDENCY.

Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.

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05-09-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
@chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? Every link you posted supports my position and refutes yours. I told you that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba without explicit permission (a license) from the government, which is only granted in special cases and never just because an American wants to go there. Beyonce and Jay-Z, btw, got a license for a cultural exchange. You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.


How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

You say “Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.” But all you've done is give links that prove exactly what I said. Give me one link that states that US citizens are allowed to exit the US system and terminate their obligations to the US by giving up their US residence, and not renouncing their citizenship.
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05-09-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? Every link you posted supports my position and refutes yours. I told you that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba without explicit permission (a license) from the government, which is only granted in special cases and never just because an American wants to go there. Beyonce and Jay-Z, btw, got a license for a cultural exchange. You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.


How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

You say “Your understanding of emigration from the U.S. is in error.” But all you've done is give links that prove exactly what I said. Give me one link that states that US citizens are allowed to exit the US system and terminate their obligations to the US by giving up their US residence, and not renouncing their citizenship.

Read the IRS publication referenced. Once you are a "covered expatriate" you are no longer subject to U.S. taxes.

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05-09-2013, 08:47 PM
RE: Ask a (GASP) CHINESE COMMUNIST ! ! !
(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @chas, Do actually read any of the links you provide??? ... You say I'm wrong and that Cuba is not banned, and give a link on state.gov to prove your position, and that link states:

This is evidently a semantic issue. Let us proceed:

the US government Wrote:The regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed in order to engage in any travel-related transactions pursuant to travel to, from, and within Cuba, or that the transactions in question be exempt from licensing requirements. Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable. This restriction includes tourist travel to Cuba from or through a third country such as Mexico or Canada. U.S. law enforcement authorities enforce these regulations at U.S. airports and pre-clearance facilities in third countries. Travelers who fail to comply with Department of the Treasury regulations could face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.

(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  How on earth can you not see that link proves what I said all along, and refutes your position? It's pretty plain English.

Travel-related transactions must be licensed. That is not a ban. It's pretty plain English.

(05-09-2013 08:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Then in the next sentence you do it again!!! I point out that the US requires citizens to renounce their citizenship in order to exit the system, unlike the rest of the world. You claim that “Once you are a permanent emigre you no longer are under U.S. Jurisdiction”, suggesting that being a permanent emigre in US law is something other than renouncing one's citizenship, and you give a link to support your position which explains at the top that it “apply to US citizens who have renounced their citizenship”. Yet again, you post a link that supports my claim and refutes yours.

If one chooses to give up one citizenship without holding another, one has only oneself to blame for lack of foresight. That the United States will let you do so is not the point. I might reiterate here that one cannot renounce Canadian citizenship without holding another recognized citizenship.

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