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21-10-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
Facts are the devils way of separating us from god, that is why the tree of knowledge was evil lol.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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21-10-2013, 08:36 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
Were you a really for real life mormon? Knew everything wore the sacred underwear? lol no what I really want to know if this video is accurate.



I mean..it can't be right? Maybe some parts?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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21-10-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 08:36 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Were you a really for real life mormon? Knew everything wore the sacred underwear? lol no what I really want to know if this video is accurate.



I mean..it can't be right? Maybe some parts?

So that was the source that I didn't really trust...

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-10-2013, 08:47 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 08:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-10-2013 08:36 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Were you a really for real life mormon? Knew everything wore the sacred underwear? lol no what I really want to know if this video is accurate.



I mean..it can't be right? Maybe some parts?

So that was the source that I didn't really trust...
I don't either, but who knows. Some religions are pretty wacky.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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21-10-2013, 10:13 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 08:36 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Were you a really for real life mormon? Knew everything wore the sacred underwear? lol no what I really want to know if this video is accurate.



I mean..it can't be right? Maybe some parts?

I was born a Mormon, to Mormon parents, and believed it fervently until I was about 11 years old. Before then I trusted my parents to tell me the truth, so I had no reason to doubt their teachings. The older I got, the more I learned, the less the doctrine made any sense to me. I left the church at 18 years old.

This video is accurate quite often, but it needs a few changes. Fortunately I can supply those.

1) The video claims that god has polygamous wives in heaven. This is incorrect. Modern Mormon Doctrine claims that he only has one.

It would not surprise me to learn that the movie may have been correct at one point in church history. Since the church has prophets and apostles, capable of changing the doctrine and claiming it as revelation, who knows what adjustments have been made.

2) The video claims that our spirits were all conceived through physical sex between god and his wives. This is technically correct, although if you were to ask a member about it, they would say it isn't supported by the doctrine. The reason for this, is that it is an arrived conclusion based on theological logic.

It is taught separately that sex is sacred, and has always been a part of the human plan. God himself has sex with his wife. Since this doctrine is taught, we can logically assume that this is how spirits are formed. Fortunately this gives us the breathing room as members to not look the fool when we are asked to explain this. We can merely ignore the question and claim doctrinal ignorance.

3) Although the explanation of the conflict in heaven is accurate, the idea that neutral souls were sent to earth as black people is incorrect. It is true that Mormonism is inherently racist, but we will have to come back to that in more detail in the future. In this case, they got it wrong.

4) The video claims that god visited the earth and actually had sex with The Virgin Mary. This is incorrect. I was taught the virgin birth as a child, and it was always a part of our doctrine. Mormons believe in the virgin birth. I once heard it explained in a church meeting like this, "God sent the holy ghost to use his power to impregnate Mary. Jesus was truly a child born of the spirit."

I have only encountered Mormons who believe in a literal conception of Jesus since I became an Atheist. There seem to be a few of them who believe this, but it is by no means official, or even mainstream.

5) The video claims that Jesus married at least three times, with Mary, her sister Martha, and Mary Magdalene. Although scholars have suspected this to be true for a long while now, there is no doctrinal support for it in the Mormon church.

The movie is correct in saying that Joseph Smith claimed to be a direct descendant of Jesus, although it is laughable when you know why he said it.

Mormons have a special officiant of blessings and priesthood authority that they call a "Patriarch". This man is responsible for "Patriarchal Blessings" which can be prayed over the head of a young person with hands on their head. The blessing is a prediction or prophecy of their own personal future.

Contained within each blessing is a pronouncement of one's lineage. Essentially, the ordinance has such power that it grafts you onto the line of Jesus and David without actually needing to be biologically part of that line.

So, Joseph is claiming to be a descendant of Christ only by superstitious adoption, as the result of a made up ritual.

6) I noticed the video referred to Jesus as "The Mormon Jesus". This makes no sense at all, since Mormons believe in the same Jesus that all other Christians do. The only major difference is that they believe he made a trip to the ancient American continent after his resurrection. They believe this appearance to have occurred shortly after the famous appearance before Doubting Thomas. They point to the Book of Mormon as evidence of this appearance, since it chronicles the event.

Some Christians continue to claim that Mormons worship and entirely different man than Jesus Christ, but this is nonsense.

There is quite a bit of content in the video that is correct, and that I did not cover for that reason. However, there is always a more profound level of detail and understanding with Mormonism, and I would be happy to tell you more. Please feel free to ask questions about anything at all.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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21-10-2013, 10:23 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 10:13 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(21-10-2013 08:36 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Were you a really for real life mormon? Knew everything wore the sacred underwear? lol no what I really want to know if this video is accurate.



I mean..it can't be right? Maybe some parts?

I was born a Mormon, to Mormon parents, and believed it fervently until I was about 11 years old. Before then I trusted my parents to tell me the truth, so I had no reason to doubt their teachings. The older I got, the more I learned, the less the doctrine made any sense to me. I left the church at 18 years old.

This video is accurate quite often, but it needs a few changes. Fortunately I can supply those.

1) The video claims that god has polygamous wives in heaven. This is incorrect. Modern Mormon Doctrine claims that he only has one.

It would not surprise me to learn that the movie may have been correct at one point in church history. Since the church has prophets and apostles, capable of changing the doctrine and claiming it as revelation, who knows what adjustments have been made.

2) The video claims that our spirits were all conceived through physical sex between god and his wives. This is technically correct, although if you were to ask a member about it, they would say it isn't supported by the doctrine. The reason for this, is that it is an arrived conclusion based on theological logic.

It is taught separately that sex is sacred, and has always been a part of the human plan. God himself has sex with his wife. Since this doctrine is taught, we can logically assume that this is how spirits are formed. Fortunately this gives us the breathing room as members to not look the fool when we are asked to explain this. We can merely ignore the question and claim doctrinal ignorance.

3) Although the explanation of the conflict in heaven is accurate, the idea that neutral souls were sent to earth as black people is incorrect. It is true that Mormonism is inherently racist, but we will have to come back to that in more detail in the future. In this case, they got it wrong.

4) The video claims that god visited the earth and actually had sex with The Virgin Mary. This is incorrect. I was taught the virgin birth as a child, and it was always a part of our doctrine. Mormons believe in the virgin birth. I once heard it explained in a church meeting like this, "God sent the holy ghost to use his power to impregnate Mary. Jesus was truly a child born of the spirit."

I have only encountered Mormons who believe in a literal conception of Jesus since I became an Atheist. There seem to be a few of them who believe this, but it is by no means official, or even mainstream.

5) The video claims that Jesus married at least three times, with Mary, her sister Martha, and Mary Magdalene. Although scholars have suspected this to be true for a long while now, there is no doctrinal support for it in the Mormon church.

The movie is correct in saying that Joseph Smith claimed to be a direct descendant of Jesus, although it is laughable when you know why he said it.

Mormons have a special officiant of blessings and priesthood authority that they call a "Patriarch". This man is responsible for "Patriarchal Blessings" which can be prayed over the head of a young person with hands on their head. The blessing is a prediction or prophecy of their own personal future.

Contained within each blessing is a pronouncement of one's lineage. Essentially, the ordinance has such power that it grafts you onto the line of Jesus and David without actually needing to be biologically part of that line.

So, Joseph is claiming to be a descendant of Christ only by superstitious adoption, as the result of a made up ritual.

6) I noticed the video referred to Jesus as "The Mormon Jesus". This makes no sense at all, since Mormons believe in the same Jesus that all other Christians do. The only major difference is that they believe he made a trip to the ancient American continent after his resurrection. They believe this appearance to have occurred shortly after the famous appearance before Doubting Thomas. They point to the Book of Mormon as evidence of this appearance, since it chronicles the event.

Some Christians continue to claim that Mormons worship and entirely different man than Jesus Christ, but this is nonsense.

There is quite a bit of content in the video that is correct, and that I did not cover for that reason. However, there is always a more profound level of detail and understanding with Mormonism, and I would be happy to tell you more. Please feel free to ask questions about anything at all.

I am kind of in shock that the video was that accurate. I really thought it was just a smear piece by some anti-Mormon fundies. I had always before prefaced any relating of the info in that video as unconfirmed and probably false. I never gave Mormonism much thought because of the obvious fraud it was founded on. Much like Scientology when you can see the reason behind the foundation it is easy to see the lies being spun.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-10-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
I can't help but think that I am offering you a presentation of Mormonism that no actual Mormon would ever offer. I am perfectly willing to answer any question and discuss any part of the doctrine, but an active Mormon wouldn't answer a lot of them. They would be looking for the easiest way to "sell" you on the parts of Mormonism that are attractive. Once you are comfortable with those, they hit you with one crazy surprise after another, slowly drawing you into a vortex of crazy. It may sound like it isn't possible, but I have seen it. Perfectly reasonable people, lost in fantasy land, slowly believing in weirder and weirder shit.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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21-10-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
Will they leave me the fuck alone if I tell them I'm an atheist when they come to my door?

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21-10-2013, 11:54 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 10:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Will they leave me the fuck alone if I tell them I'm an atheist when they come to my door?

Honestly being as firm as possible is a good strategy with Mormons. It's up to you to decide if you want to be harsh with them, but firmness is required if you want to live your life without another missionary coming to see you.

If they get the idea that you are interested even a little, you can expect to be put on a missionary list, and bothered frequently. It's best just to be upfront with them about your level of interest.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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21-10-2013, 11:57 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(21-10-2013 10:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I am kind of in shock that the video was that accurate. I really thought it was just a smear piece by some anti-Mormon fundies. I had always before prefaced any relating of the info in that video as unconfirmed and probably false. I never gave Mormonism much thought because of the obvious fraud it was founded on. Much like Scientology when you can see the reason behind the foundation it is easy to see the lies being spun.

I understand your shock. This is some really crazy stuff.

I can tell you for certain that the video was not produced by the Church. It may very well be a smear campaign done by another faith. If that is the case, it is the most effective smear I have ever seen by virtue of getting so much right.

It says a lot about a religion when telling the truth about them is automatically crazy. You don't even need lies to expose them.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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