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01-11-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(30-10-2013 08:39 PM)sporehux Wrote:  I thought the Mormons had admitted that Pre-faith Joseph Smith was a scumbag fraud, but was used by god/s as an instrument for enlightenment. thus redeeming him self.
so his parents should be unimportant.
my Mormon education comes from comic satire admittedly.

No faithful Mormon would ever admit that Joseph Smith was a scumbag fraud. They will defend his character at every turn, regardless of evidence. They must do so if they intend to remain faithful, since admitting he was dishonest by nature is as good as casting doubt on the entire religion. Every Mormon greatly fears this line of questioning, since it is such a house of cards. If Joseph was a fraud, they will be forced to ask themselves honest and searching questions which are uncomfortable, as well as a risk to their social and family lives.

I can a test to this fear myself, as I experienced it first hand. I spent many years not knowing why I was so afraid of searching questions, but now I know. Deep down I was intelligent enough to know something was wrong with Joseph's story. It was too convenient, and suspicious. A desire to remain a member of my family, and to have my friends still, kept me silent on this subject for many years.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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01-11-2013, 12:12 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(31-10-2013 06:32 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Ah, so no accolades to the doctor. It was gods work, typical

This line of thinking was essential to my deconversion.

How does one tell when God is intervening, and when he is not? Why isn't god's intervention obvious and wonderful? Why does he only seem to do things that people could have done on their own? Why isn't he involved when anything goes wrong?

These are the questions that made faith impossible for me.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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02-11-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
Haven't read through so forgive me if this was asked. Do you think many Mormon men truly believe that they can become gods of their own planet? Of all the insane religious beliefs, this one might be the most ridiculous.

Does this perhaps contribute to what appears to be the nearly Muslim level of arrogance of many Mormon men, in addition to their similar subjugation of women?
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06-11-2013, 01:05 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(02-11-2013 12:20 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Do you think many Mormon men truly believe that they can become gods of their own planet?

Yes. Every single Mormon man believes this. They believe it is the purpose of life, to prepare for an afterlife of godhood.

As with many Mormon beliefs, they are encouraged to not open discussions with such "Heavy Doctrine". They will avoid this line of questioning, in order to appear less arrogant or ridiculous.

(02-11-2013 12:20 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Does this perhaps contribute to what appears to be the nearly Muslim level of arrogance of many Mormon men, in addition to their similar subjugation of women?

This particular belief does not necessarily contribute more to sexism than any other. Mormons belief in an unalterable set of roles delegated to both men and women. It is only in the last few decades that their vice grip has loosened some what on this subject.

Islam, by comparison, has an advantage in subjugating women, in that their religion is firmly rooted in their religion. Mormonism must contend with a secular government that is pro-women's rights.

If you were to compare Mormonism at its founding, or shortly afterward, with Islam at any time, you would find some startling similarities. Each religion mandates the wearing of extraordinarily modest clothing for women. Each religion withholds both physical and spiritual authority from women. Each religion requires women to bear and rear children as a predetermined role authored by god himself.

However shocking these similarities may seem, modern Mormonism has evolved with the times. Women in the church no longer follow these strict rules. They work outside the home, wear what was once considered only men's clothing, and basically do as they please.

Priesthood authority is still denied women today. There are some women who actively campaign for priesthood rights, but they are certainly not considered mainstream. Priesthood leaders have spoken in public on the subject, and are continuously attempting to square the circle of "men and women are equal in god's eyes" and "god grants the authority to act in his name to men only".

I have high hopes for Mormonism to evolve right out of its own precepts, since it has proven it is willing to do so in the past. Blacks hold the priesthood, and polygamy is not longer a core doctrine, so clearly changing things up isn't a big problem. I speculate often about whether or not the gay rights movement will have any effect, or if one day gays will no longer be considered sinners by the church. We will see.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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06-11-2013, 09:42 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(06-11-2013 01:05 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Priesthood authority is still denied women today. There are some women who actively campaign for priesthood rights, but they are certainly not in the majority
Pants wearing women. Can't trust them!

(06-11-2013 01:05 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have high hopes for Mormonism?
To do what, reduce the insanity to only the level of Christianity?
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06-11-2013, 11:59 PM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(06-11-2013 09:42 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 01:05 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have high hopes for Mormonism?
To do what, reduce the insanity to only the level of Christianity?

Since we can't exactly snap people out of it wholesale, yeah, reduced levels of delusion is a good first step.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-11-2013, 06:37 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
I personally cant get past the ridiculous notion of reading holy texts out of a hat. REALLY?

I want to invent a new science called gullibology trying to figure out why the hell anyone, ever, in the entire world, would take anything seriously when its spoken by a man with his face deep in a stetson. Was the rabbit telling him what to say?

Was he a Nigerian prince who also needed £500 to allow him to transfer the 3 million pounds left to you by your long lost great uncle who had just died in a car accident in Nigeria? Or did he offer penis enlargement pills?

C'mon, surely that bit cant be true
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08-11-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(06-11-2013 01:05 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Islam, by comparison, has an advantage in subjugating women, in that their religion is firmly rooted in their religion. Mormonism must contend with a secular government that is pro-women's rights.

This is supposed to read "their government is firmly rooted in their religion".

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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08-11-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(06-11-2013 09:42 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  To do what, reduce the insanity to only the level of Christianity?

I see where you are going with that point, freetoreason, but it wasn't where I was originally intending to take that thought. How am I to say which of several wacky religions is the wackier?

My original quote is as follows.

(06-11-2013 09:42 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have high hopes for Mormonism to evolve right out of its own precepts...

My original point was that Mormonism is a changing religion, and they are on a path towards evolving right out of some of their most basic principles. Women's rights, Civil rights, Gay rights, etc... are all having a profound effect on how they view people, even though they claim to have had God's will regarding their congregation all along. Secular society is wearing the church down, and changing if for the better.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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08-11-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Ask a Mormon
(07-11-2013 06:37 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I personally cant get past the ridiculous notion of reading holy texts out of a hat. REALLY?

Joseph Smith is reported to have used "peep stones" out of a hat to "see the future" and "divine the location of buried treasure". He did this before the fiasco with The Book of Mormon ever began.

He was brought to court and prosecuted for being a disorderly person, engaging fraudulent gold digging expeditions, and engaging in wizardry. Many speculate this ridiculous "wizardry" charge was the result of using his magical stones in public. Joseph is recorded to have plead guilty to all charges.

Although these activities are outrageous and ridiculous, he never used a hat when it came to translating The Book of Mormon. He claimed to have retrieved two stones from the place where the book was found, which had been placed their by god so that he may translate the book.

The translation took place in a small room, with a cloth partition. A scribe sat on one side taking Joseph's dictation, while Joseph sat on the other using the "stones" to translate the book. The scribe was always forbidden to look upon the plates, or to pull apart the curtain, on pain of death administered by god himself.

Although the actual translation of the Book of Mormon is a ridiculous story regardless, it is worth noting that it wasn't done out of hat.

It is also worth noting, that this kind of thing was much more believable back in Joseph's time, since many people were still very superstitious and ignorant of critical thinking methods.

If the church had to stand today based on the information from that time alone, without the use of its family indoctrination which is so effective, no doubt it would not survive the onslaught of criticism.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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