Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
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20-05-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(20-05-2012 02:38 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(20-05-2012 02:08 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  You can not compare adultery to rape.
Rape is forced.
Adultery, just like sex, takes two to tango.

To suggest that adultery is rape is sick.

How are the men punished? I bet they're not. Typical Islamic countries. And they wonder why they are frowned upon?
The only difference between Islam and Christianity is that Christianity happens to be in more 1st world countries which tend to be more lenient in the first place. I think you'll see if you go to third world countries Christianity is still it's normal old self, which is pretty much just like the Muslims in that country. The more advanced these countries with a majority of muslims become, I think you'll see their laws becoming more lenient. Unless they're ruled by a dictator...

To us adultery is not rape no, but this isn't to us now is it? It's what they think. You should try to understand others more. If it's any consolation, the women in the adultery mile high club knew the consequences for their actions should they be caught. And while some of them still do it anyways, they probably have a lot lesser adultery rate than we do.
"You should try to understand others more"

Using your logic pedophiles are a-okay. As are rapists, murderers (well, some, some think what they did was wrong), psychopathic serial killers, Hitler.. oh wait you're in denial about the holocaust scratch that one then. What else we got, aggravated robbers, all those crazy Mexican drug dealers who lopped off the heads of those 50 people the other day.
The list goes on.

My point is, just because someone says it is right in their eyes doesn't make it in any way shape or form right.

Adultery is a two way thing. It is that simple. Rape isn't.
And are the men held liable? nope. Thus sexiest thus wrong.

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20-05-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(20-05-2012 07:33 AM)Dom Wrote:  I'm not even arguing against the execution, although that is harsh too, I am arguing against stoning to death. Can you imagine the agony?
Yeah I do believe that is a bit harsh and even a bit hypocritical, most muslims believe Jesus was a prophet (at least from what I've heard) and follow his teachings or at least what they believe to be his teachings, and yet one of the teachings is 'let he who is without sin throw the first stone.' They must think rather highly of themselves. Wink

Quote:Re
"Dom, it is not religion that makes people cruel, but rather how they
were raised." HUH? Surely that's a bit too simplistic. Their religious
belief is often the very source of the cruelty.


Consider our mate here. On the surface a nice chap, yet he thinks its ok to murder someone for adultery.
That
could be for some, but for the most part they're just a bunch of
government thugs or hired mercs who cause a lot of the violence we see.
And again I thought we were past the point of objective morality. To
them it's not murder, but rather a form of justice.

The Taliban were trained and hired by Pakistan to take over Afghanistan, Al Qaeda was traomed by the U.S. to fight off the soviets, Ethiopa and Saudia Arabia hold some of the most oppressive dictators (as well as Sudan). These are the government thugs and hired mercs which I speak of, and which I'm assuming are the ones you've heard of.

Having said that, I have better things to do than mourn an unjust end to an adulterer. Personally, until you guys in the '1st world' countries start executing your murderers and rapists, I don't think you have any room to talk about the corrupt morality of another. Drinking Beverage
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20-05-2012, 10:37 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2012 05:49 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]




I posted this video before but want your view. What is your stance on freedom of speech? It seems an overwhelming majority of Muslims are against freedom of speech if it mocks their religion. While I believe there should be respect for religion I also believe people should have the right to say whatever they want. Denying them that simple right leads to a world of those who control and censor others which I am extremely against. I may not agree with someone's point of view but they have the right to say it. I will not persecute them, kill them, or punish them for what they want to say freely. Even the Westboro Baptist church is defended by this and although I believe they are insanely unintelligent that doesn't mean they don't have the right to say what they wish. It also gives me the right to openly say that they are completely insane.

Just because you don't like what people say doesn't mean you have the right to quiet them.

I find it a bit humorous that some radical Muslims protest freedom of speech and yet if freedom of speech didn't exist they might have never been able to protest or reveal their views at all. I'm not saying your a radical or extremist in any way but I want to know if there is any way in which Islam and freedom of speech can coexist. Can they?

If not than you must know this will only cause unrest and may lead to a war in our future which no side can we.

What do you believe will happen then? Moderate Muslims here seem to be just as American as anybody I've seen in the states but in Europe it seems to be a bit more chaotic.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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21-05-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(20-05-2012 06:47 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(20-05-2012 07:33 AM)Dom Wrote:  I'm not even arguing against the execution, although that is harsh too, I am arguing against stoning to death. Can you imagine the agony?
Yeah I do believe that is a bit harsh and even a bit hypocritical, most muslims believe Jesus was a prophet (at least from what I've heard) and follow his teachings or at least what they believe to be his teachings, and yet one of the teachings is 'let he who is without sin throw the first stone.' They must think rather highly of themselves. Wink

Quote:Re
"Dom, it is not religion that makes people cruel, but rather how they
were raised." HUH? Surely that's a bit too simplistic. Their religious
belief is often the very source of the cruelty.


Consider our mate here. On the surface a nice chap, yet he thinks its ok to murder someone for adultery.
That
could be for some, but for the most part they're just a bunch of
government thugs or hired mercs who cause a lot of the violence we see.
And again I thought we were past the point of objective morality. To
them it's not murder, but rather a form of justice.

The Taliban were trained and hired by Pakistan to take over Afghanistan, Al Qaeda was traomed by the U.S. to fight off the soviets, Ethiopa and Saudia Arabia hold some of the most oppressive dictators (as well as Sudan). These are the government thugs and hired mercs which I speak of, and which I'm assuming are the ones you've heard of.

Having said that, I have better things to do than mourn an unjust end to an adulterer. Personally, until you guys in the '1st world' countries start executing your murderers and rapists, I don't think you have any room to talk about the corrupt morality of another. Drinking Beverage
Re
"Having said that, I have better things to do than mourn an unjust end to an adulterer. Personally, until you guys in the '1st world' countries start executing your murderers and rapists, I don't think you have any room to talk about the corrupt morality of another."

Um...beg your pardon! Did you mean this? What country are you in?
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21-05-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Same question I've asked in the "ask a theist" thread. I assume you don't flollow all the rules in the quran like fight unbelievers. Do you think the guys who made the quran had in mind that you can choose what rules to follow from the quran and what not to follow or do you think those people made the quran so people had to follow it by the letter.
In short, do you think cherrypicking from the quran is approved by allah, muhammed and the original writers?

Also, do you think fundamentalist muslims are more prone to do violent acts than more modern muslims. If so, doesn't that mean the fundamentals of Islam are dangerous?

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21-05-2012, 06:02 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(20-05-2012 06:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  "You should try to understand others more"

Using your logic pedophiles are a-okay. As are rapists, murderers (well, some, some think what they did was wrong), psychopathic serial killers, Hitler.. oh wait you're in denial about the holocaust scratch that one then. What else we got, aggravated robbers, all those crazy Mexican drug dealers who lopped off the heads of those 50 people the other day.
The list goes on.

My point is, just because someone says it is right in their eyes doesn't make it in any way shape or form right.

Adultery is a two way thing. It is that simple. Rape isn't.
And are the men held liable? nope. Thus sexiest thus wrong.
Yes clearly saying 'try to understand others more' is actually saying let murderers and rapists do whatever the want. If you understood the logic behind what it takes to be able to murder or rape someone you would understand that these people who commit such crimes should be executed on the spot.

And your point on the thought of being right applies for you just as much as it applies to me. I understood I could very well be wrong, but to me I've already been wrong many times before. So do you think telling me that is going to make any difference? It's because I've been wrong before that I actively search to be right.

And I never said Islam wasn't sexist.

Quote:Re
"Having
said that, I have better things to do than mourn an unjust end to an
adulterer. Personally, until you guys in the '1st world' countries start
executing your murderers and rapists, I don't think you have any room
to talk about the corrupt morality of another."

Um...beg your pardon! Did you mean this? What country are you in?
Long ago I abandoned the need to label myself by a country, but currently I am residing in the one you call the United States of America. If I was in Europe I'd be thrown in jail for denying the holocaust.

If you feel offended because I don't care about adulterers I'm sorry but there are a lot more deserving people worthy of my worry. But I was more as using that as an example, is executing and adulterer a corrupt moral decision? Yes. But so is deciding not to execute murderers or rapists.
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22-05-2012, 03:11 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(21-05-2012 06:02 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(20-05-2012 06:46 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  "You should try to understand others more"

Using your logic pedophiles are a-okay. As are rapists, murderers (well, some, some think what they did was wrong), psychopathic serial killers, Hitler.. oh wait you're in denial about the holocaust scratch that one then. What else we got, aggravated robbers, all those crazy Mexican drug dealers who lopped off the heads of those 50 people the other day.
The list goes on.

My point is, just because someone says it is right in their eyes doesn't make it in any way shape or form right.

Adultery is a two way thing. It is that simple. Rape isn't.
And are the men held liable? nope. Thus sexiest thus wrong.
Yes clearly saying 'try to understand others more' is actually saying let murderers and rapists do whatever the want. If you understood the logic behind what it takes to be able to murder or rape someone you would understand that these people who commit such crimes should be executed on the spot.

And your point on the thought of being right applies for you just as much as it applies to me. I understood I could very well be wrong, but to me I've already been wrong many times before. So do you think telling me that is going to make any difference? It's because I've been wrong before that I actively search to be right.

And I never said Islam wasn't sexist.

Quote:Re
"Having
said that, I have better things to do than mourn an unjust end to an
adulterer. Personally, until you guys in the '1st world' countries start
executing your murderers and rapists, I don't think you have any room
to talk about the corrupt morality of another."

Um...beg your pardon! Did you mean this? What country are you in?
Long ago I abandoned the need to label myself by a country, but currently I am residing in the one you call the United States of America. If I was in Europe I'd be thrown in jail for denying the holocaust.

If you feel offended because I don't care about adulterers I'm sorry but there are a lot more deserving people worthy of my worry. But I was more as using that as an example, is executing and adulterer a corrupt moral decision? Yes. But so is deciding not to execute murderers or rapists.
I misunderstood you re adulterers. I agree its none of anyone's business if people want to commit adultery. But...actually...I can't understand you at all. I'm not sure whether you have made some typos (which we all occasionally do,) or if English is your second language (?) I think I'll just have a beer.
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23-05-2012, 02:55 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Sorry internet mullah, this is too funny
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23-05-2012, 04:05 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(19-05-2012 08:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  This Pastor Terry Jones - is he deserving of death, in your opinion? (I think I remember you saying that enemies of Islam were legitimately allowed to be killed according to the Quran).

No, he is not deserving of death because we do not have to defend ourselves in this situation. Killing a non-Muslim is only permissible under extreme cases such as where an enemy physically tries to attack Muslims and/or plots against a Musim state in order to harm the ciitizens. But, I don't think that the act of burning a copy of the Quran fall under that category although the action is definitely wrong, in my opinion.

(19-05-2012 11:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  If lets say He was self delusional, he could have had a mental illness. People hear voices everyday, even in present times. Does it matter if it is poetic or not, it all was in his head. There would be no hard proof for this because their was no way, back in that time that they could conclusivly prove that he was fucking bonkers.

I understand what you're saying. And you're right, no one can actually dismiss that argument as 100% invalid. But, still, I think it more counterintuititve to think that Muhammad was bonkers after knowing the kind of lifestyle that he had and the things that he did for Islam. Also, if he was really mad or insane, then I think that this would have been apparent in the Quran itself, because there would have been a lot of mistakes and meaningless string of words and other things that just doesn't make sense. On the contrary, from a scholarly point of view, all the facts in the Quran are correct and no one was able to prove that there was an error or a mistake in the book. So, how can a delusional man hear words that are correct every single time and yet so eloquent in it's literary style that no one else was ever able to produce something even similar to it? To me, that is the strongest reason that the Quran did not originate from Muhammad's mind, although I cannot prove that your argument wrong either.

Some also say that Muhammad may have had epilepsy. But, again, even modern Western scholars of Islam have rejected that idea as it is something very improbable. William Montgomery Watt, a Scottish historian, who wrote a biography of Muhmmad, also disagrees with the epilepsy diagnosis, saying that "there are no real grounds for such a view."

Elaborating, Watt says that "epilepsy leads to physical and mental degeneration, and there are no signs of that in Muhammad." He then goes further and states that Muhammad was psychologically sound in general: "He (Muhammad) was clearly in full possession of his faculties to the very end of his life." He concludes by stating "It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been."

Also, here's an article about this:
The Origins of the Epilepsy Lie about Prophet Muhammad

(19-05-2012 11:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  He could have been a liar. Saying that there is no hard proof for him telling a lie is not a good arguement.

Although there is no hard proof that Muhammad wasn't lying, as you said correclty, Atothetheist, my point is that assuming him to be a liar would go against everything that we do know about Muhammad. For example, Muhammad's reliability and credibility is enforced and substantiated by the fact that a liar usually lies for some worldly gain, but he rejected all worldly aspirations, and suffered tremendously for his message. He rejected the riches and power he was offered to stop promulgating his message. More significantly, he was persecuted for his beliefs, boycotted and exiled from his beloved city (Mecca), starved of food, and stoned by children to the point where his blood drenched his legs. Even his beloved companions were tortured and persecuted. So, after knowing these things, the psychological profile of the Prophet is obviously inconsistent with that of a liar, and to maintain that he was dishonest is tantamount of making bold claims without any evidence.

(19-05-2012 11:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  There is no proof that Jesus ever told a lie (hard proof) so, by your standards, that would be an arguement for Christianity.

Yes, but I do not believe that Jesus lied either because we believe that Jesus was also a Prophet along with Muhammad and every other Prophet. When Jesus was a Prophet, that the religion that people had to follow. Then, after Muhmmad was appointed as a Prophet, then that was the religion that people had to follow. That being said, I should also mention that we know very little for sure about Jesus and some of the events surrounding him from the standpoint of secular history. Similarly, we don't know much about what the very first Christians believed either.

(19-05-2012 11:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I value your responses, but these were somthing that I saw issue with.

Thanks, Atothetheist, and I value your responses, too.

(19-05-2012 03:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Do you think of Allah as the equal of Shaytaan? In other words, in the struggle between good and evil, is Allah guaranteed to be triumphant, or if enough people turn away from Islam, does evil win?

No, morondog, I do not think of Allah as even close to the power of shaytaan. We believe that He is the Greatest (Al-Kabir). And He is the source of power for everything. Without Him, there wouldn't be anything in this universe. Of course, Allah will be triumphant in whatever He wills to achieve, but people turning away from Islam is something that He has given control over (i.e. to let us make our own choice in regards to religion). So, if people don't accept Islam, then yes, evil wins, but that doesn't defeat nor discourage Allah in any way because He is completely above and beyond everything that we do. He will simply punish those who strayed from His commandments and/or disbelieved in Him and He will reward those who did follow His commandments.

(19-05-2012 03:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  I suspect that like the Christian Satan, Islamic Shaytaan is doomed to defeat eventually...

Yes, because we believe that the shaytaan will also be sent to Hell.

(19-05-2012 03:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  Next question, is your guys concept of hell the same as the Christian one? As in people getting tortured for their evil sins forever, or what happens if you die and are not a good person?

We believe that all the non-believers will be sent to Hell and they will remain their for eternity. Also, their good deeds will be wiped away because they do not believe in God and hence there is no reward for their deeds. In Islam, faith is primary and good actions are secondary. So, if faith is not present in the first place, then all their good deeds will be nullified as the Quran says, "Those who disbelieve and avert (men) from the way of Allah, He will render their actions fruitless" (47:1). Elsewhere, the Quran says, "And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed" (25:23).

As for people of other religions, we believe that there are some people who are amongst Chrisianity and Judaism - known as "People of the Book" (Ahlul-Kitaab) - and who believe in one God along with the scriptures given to all the Prophets, the Resurrection, and Judgement Day, will not be the ones who get punished in the next life. As written in the Quran, "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62). Here is a good article that sheds more light on your question in accordance to the Quranic verses:

The Quran, the Believers, and the Non-Believers (by Ahmad Shafaat)

Speaking of heaven and hell, the thing is that even the concept of "time" and "eternity" in heaven and hell may not be what we think they are, or our sense of time might be totally different over there to what we experience in the present life. We know that time is regarded as the 4th dimension. So, if heaven and hell exist in some other, extra dimension(s), or in some kind of a brane, then I don't really know what it feels like to live there for "eternity" nor what that even means from our perspective. I just can't comprehend it right now. I mean, we see that things are changing around us all the time and things are decaying and withering away as time goes on. Plants and animals are dying everyday. In other words, the second law of thermodynamics is talking a toll on everything that we see around us. But, in Heaven, this is not going to happen. Our brains and bodies will never age and we can live forever and still remain beautiful.
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23-05-2012, 04:11 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 01:41 PM by Internet Mullah.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(19-05-2012 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  I still have not heard a reply to why the punishments have to be so incredibly cruel.

Actually, Dom, I have already explained several times that the main reason for this is because the punishments serve as an effective deterrence against crimes.

The important thing is that Islam never prescribes punishment haphazardly nor does it execute these without due consideration, and the few death punishments inflicted for the most serious offences have very strict 'definition elements' which makes their application very rare in practice and yet they have been instrumental in the past and at present in greatly reducing the number of crimes whereas these things are seriously affecting Western societies. Similarly, adultery has caused an unlimited chain of birth of illegitimate children in the Western countries. Being fatherless children, these illegitimate children have developed like a cancer in the Western society.

In regards to adultery in Islam, if a person transgresses the limits beyond all bounds of decency to commit adultery in 'public', then Islam provides a severe punishment that acts as a strong 'deterrent' to others in order to protect the society from future occurences of the same thing. The punishment has an effect of preventing individuals from committing the same crime in the future and it serves a stern warning to others. That's why the number of cases of adultery and fornication in countries where the Sharia is established are significantly low compared to many Western countries.

For fornication between unmarried couples, the penalty is 100 lashes, and for adultery between married couples, the penalty is stoning to death.

Even then, the stoning punishment is not prescribed for the mere commission of adultery, but other definition elements of the crime has to be satisfied: Only that kind of adultery is punishable by stoning which is committed intentionally by a free person who is both mature and sane, the accused must be committed to a marriage and has had intercourse with his lawful spouse, and the act of adultery must be attested by four honest, reliable, and trustworthy witnesses who must have all seen the act of penetration and all four witnesses must be 'unanimous' in every stage of the act including the exact details. If the statement of one witness is contradictory to the others, then all four witnesses will be given a punishment of 80 lashes for their slander.

(19-05-2012 06:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  It is what hurts Muslims the most in the eyes of the rest of the world, and it deserves some thought from you.

I did think about it and maybe I thought about it more than you think I did. It's only that you guys do not understand the philosophy behind these punishments.

Murder, theft, adultery, or any other crime committed by a Muslim, if he knows the extent of the negative consequences for himself that his crime will cause, he will think a thousand times before committing it. Awareness of the punishment will, in two ways, cause the criminal to abstain from committing the crime. The criminal who has already been subject to the punishment will most likely not return to the crime again. As for the rest of society, their awareness of the harshness and the effects of the punishment will keep them from falling into the same crime. Ultimately, the object of all penal systems is to punish the offender and protect society from reoccurrence of the crime by doing so. Punishment serves as an educational purpose as well as a form of crime deterrent and prevention. And the system of punishment used must aim to achieve this goal.

From the Western point of view, it seems to suggest that the Islamic laws are all about lashing, stoning, and mutilating. This is the picture of the Shariah that the West wants to portray, or perhaps misundertandingly wants to portray, but actually that is far from the truth. The Shariah is not merely a system of law that is meant to punish criminals, but a comprehensive code of behavior that embraces both a Muslim's private and public activities and it has a wider application than any secular system of law since it claims to regulate many other aspects our lives which include our duties to God, to our neighbor, and to ourselves.
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