Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
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24-05-2012, 06:40 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(23-05-2012 02:42 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote:  According to my own estimation, I think that there is about a mere 3 percent chance that He doesn't exist, and this means that I strongly believe in His existence.

You got some details for how you derived that statistical estimate? Feels likely to me you just pulled that number outta your ass.

#sigh
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25-05-2012, 01:39 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Internet Mullah, after you've commented on the youtube video, could you explain the power structure in Islam please?

How are the Mullahs funded? What happens if they're not paid?

Say you wanted to make a career out of pushing Islamic views...outline the career path for us. Have you got any televangelist Mullahs?

I'm interested in what you do for a job? Do you have to get on your knees 5x a day while you're at work?
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25-05-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Hello.
Interesting topic here. Seems you are a smart person.
So I also got a few questions for you.

To understand me and why I am asking this special questions I have to explain who I am and why I became who I am now.
Once I was a christian. I was never the great believer but I accepted gods existance, I prayed and went to church.
As everyone knows our brain works all day long. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week... Till we fall in love.

Unfortunately this girl was a muslim.(I think you got the problem nowTongue)
If I wanted or not, I had to start to think about religion, god, read bible, Quran, watch videos, read articles learn about the history of earth and religion. I wanted to have an all-embracing view of religion, god and the world.

And although I know really much about it now, I still don't know everything.
And to make myself even a bit more clear: I don't know everything I want to know.

Everything seems to be good if we just read the "holy" books. Some things are unclear, there are some things we don't understand, but how can we? We are all just human and how can we understand an allmighty, allknowing god since we are just human? The quran itself says: Those who believe in the unseen....

Long story, short day, then I started to compare the history of our world to the religious one.
And here nothing, really nothing makes sense!

How old are the holy religions for example? Islam about 1433 years i think, christianity 2012, judaism 4000-6000 Years.
We all believe in science right? I mean science does not disprove god. It doesn't prove gods exististance either, but most importantly it does not disprove him.
But now looking the these numbers... 1433, 2012, 6000...
How old is the world again? 4,5 billions of years?
The eldest fossils of human kind as we know them today are 160000 years old.
Are you really trying to tell me that god waited with his only true religion for 154000 years and let so many other religions, cults, and sects rise and fall till he finally came to give us true true one religion?
And most important:
Doesn't the quran say god created to earth in 7 days?
Why did he need 7 days if he is allmighty? Why did he need to rest afterwards?
And why did humanity appear 160000 years ago if God created the world in 7 days and that was over 4 billion years ago?

Just 2 days ago I saw an interesting Video on youtube. I am sorry I don't have the link anymore but this muslim scholar said something really interesting.
He said religion and science can co-exist. He said nothing comes from nothing. That's why also the universe cannot come from nothing. Therefore a creator, a god must exist who created all this.
Totally correct. Every kid learns this in primary school. First class of Physics: Nothing comes from nothing.
But his strongest angument is also the weakest.
If nothing comes from nothing, where does god come from then? Something allknowing, allmighty just came out of nothing(although we know nothing comes from nothing) and after uncountable years of darkness he decided to create the universe? I think The possibility of this is as high as the big-bang theory without a god.(So kinda we got a 50/50 chance here if we are correct or notTongue)


I am arguing with people about god and religion at least once a week.
Not because I want it, not because I like talking abou it. But because people insult me and they always want to talk about this only one topic to me when they see me. I don't know if they are trying to convince me, or if they just want to go on my nerves. They tell me to open my eyes, but didn't I open them wider than anyone else if I studied the bible and quran, the history of our world and the religions on it? How many people really take their time to do so?
They just know their one point of view and tell me to open my eyes again and again.

But I would like to know your opinion about this. What do you think? Smile


Have a nice day,

kind regards,

Martin
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25-05-2012, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2012 04:07 PM by Internet Mullah.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(23-05-2012 03:53 PM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  I studied Islam in college as part of a "Comparative Religion" Course. It was slightly biased however. It was claimed that Islam draws inspiration from Christianity, and that Mohammed had a Christian friend/mentor/foster parent or something. is there any truth in that claim? What do Muslims think about that?

Well, according to my knowledge, Muhummad’s contacts with the Jewish and Christian scholars were very limited.

The most prominent Christian known to him was an old blind man named Waraqa ibn-Naufal who was a relative of the Prophet’s first wife, Khadijah. Although of Arab descent, Waraqa was a convert to Christianity and was very well versed with the New Testament. However, the Prophet only met him twice. The first occasion was when Waraqa was worshipping at the Kaaba (before the Prophetic mission) and he kissed the Prophet’s forehead affectionately. The second occasion was when the Prophet went to meet Waraqa after receiving the first revelation. Waraqa died three years later and the revelation continued for about 23 years.

Some critics have asserted that somehow Muhammad was able to derive sources of the Quran from Waraqa. But, as I mentioned above, history shows that Muhammad only met Waraqa twice. He may have met Waraqa at certain times before claiming Prophethood, but we don't have any historical proof for this. Let's assume that he did. This doesn't prove that Muhammad's sources of the Quran was this old, blind man. This is just an assumption, but there is no evidence at all that Waraqa was teaching Muhammad anything. Even if Muhammad did gain knowledge of the Gospels (for the sake of argument), Muhammad being an illiterate could only hear and understand, but could not read nor write. This decreases the possibility that this assumption is true, since an literate person can write down what he hears and refer back to it in future. Muhammad could not do this as he was illiterate.

So, given the facts that Waraqa was an old blind man, the Prophet met him only twice, he died three years later after meeting Muhammad for the second time, the Quranic revelation continued for a period of 23 years (after Waraqa's death), Muhammad was illiterate, and that there is no historical proof of Waraqa teaching Muhammad as attested by scholars of Islam, it is not only unsupported, but also very unlikely that Waraqa was the source of the Quran.

Furthermore, to all the different Judeo-Christian "borrowing" theories of Islam, Jamal Badawi puts forward the following six questions:

1. Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad's life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad might have learned all that?

2. It is known that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad's claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings?

3. Muhammad was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?

4. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?

5. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?

6. It is known that some of the Quranic revelations came to Muhammad in the presence of people. The Quran was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then that was mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad who was constantly surrounded by companions, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that "mysterious teacher" or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

Similarly, Roger DuPasquier, a Swiss journalist and author, asserts that:

"To this day no-one has put forward a defensible explanation of how an unlettered caravan merchant of the early seventh century might have been able, by his own devices, to produce a text of such inimitable beauty, of such capacity to stir emotion, and which contained knowledge and wisdom which stood so far above the ideas current among mankind at that time. The studies carried out in the West which try to determine the 'sources used by Muhammad', or to bring to light the psychological phenomenon which enabled him to draw thei nspiration from his 'subconscious', have demonstrated only one thing: the anti-Muslim prejudice of their authors." (Unveiling Islam, p. 53)

There are indeed many similarities as well as differences between the Bible, Torah, and the Quran, but Muslims believe that the similarities exist because the revelations came to each of the prophets from the same divine source: Almighty God (or Allah). The similarities do not necessarily mean that one was copied from the other.

For Muslims, the Quran presents all the different prophets of God as belonging to one single brotherhood. All of them had a similar prophetic mission and the same basic message as revealed by God. That is why the Quran says that the differences which exist between the Abrahimc religions are not the responsibility of the prophets, but of the followers of these prophets who forgot part of what they had been taught, and furthermore, misinterpreted and changed the scriptures. The Quran, however, confirms, completes, and perfects the messages that were sent to the previous prophets.
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25-05-2012, 04:01 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(23-05-2012 04:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  This is such unspeakably cruel punishment, it is not necessary to do this to prevent further occurrances, people are not so very evil that only the most incredible agony will keep them from committing an act.

I simply cannot understand how any human being can do this to another human being. There must be something missing, some basic human decency and compassion.

The punishments in Islam are indeed very harsh, but human experience shows that if a punishment was to act as a deterrent, then it has to be severe and harsh. Secondly, yes, we should have love and compassion for one another be it a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and Islam definitely encourages that. I believe that compassion has such a great power that it can even soften the hearts of the pitiless. But, when it comes to crimes and certain acts that harm other people's lives, we are taught to be strict against the instigators by punishing them so that such acts do not spread and become common in society. Logically, it is better to be severe to one and save many than to be lenient and thereby destroy the lives of millions of others.

In the West, the institution of marriage has significantly declined and many of the marriages end up in divorce. Even families have broken down resulting in much tension and the disintegration of close relationships. More importantly, Muslims believe that adultery is a breach of the greatest 'trust' that exists between a man and a woman and it leads to disastrous consequences such as breakdown of family ties, depression, domestic violence, child abuse, rape, suicide, etc. That's why, in Islam, there is a harsh penalty for adultery. Islamic law aims to ensure the stability of society from its very base - the family - which is the nucleus of society that breeds society's values and holds together the various institutions in society.

And obviously, Islam has never declared that its punishments can completely elimate crimes from our very foundations. It is impossible to think of a society without crime, but, it is an acknowledged fact that the severe punishments according to Islamic jurisprudence have caused the rate of crime to be decreased significantly compared to Western societies. The more severe a punishment is, the more effective it is in deterring crimes, and the more effective a punishment is in deterring crimes, the better.

That being said, I think that the disagreement between you and me in regards to the morality of stoning to death is mainly due to our subjective judgements on the nature of such punishments and/or what they should be. I have explained my position on this topic (along with reasons), and I responded to your same comments several times in this thread. But, stiil, if you have anything else to say about this, then I'm willing to listen and respond to them.
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25-05-2012, 04:03 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(24-05-2012 01:44 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ok...good.....then what do you think of this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2xqNwG6nqM

I just watched the video. And that doesn't offend me either. But, I'm pretty sure that whoever made the video didn't do a proper and thorough research on whatever that he mentioned in the video. From a scholarly perspective, all the messages contained in the video are misleading, biased, and unsound. If you want me to address something specific from that video, then please write it out in your post, Mark, and then I'll post a reply to that. As for your other questions, in post # 142, I will answer them at a later post.

(24-05-2012 06:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You got some details for how you derived that statistical estimate? Feels likely to me you just pulled that number outta your ass.

That is not a statistical estimation, but a subjective estimation, Girlyman.

Different people will estimate the probability for God's existence differently. I, personally, think that the likelihood of His existence is about 95 to 97 percent, but I'm not sure. And I said that because someone in this thread asked me what I think is the probability for God's existence. An atheist, on the other hand, may say that the probabilty of God's existence is around 2 percent, for example, if he was asked the same question. But, just like he doesn't have any conclusive proof for God's non-existence, I don't have any conclusive proof of God's existence either. All these estimations of the probability for God's existence are based on each of our subjective methods of reasoning.

(24-05-2012 08:21 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Is this how you picked your religion?

Nah, I didn't pick my religion like that, but I'll admit that the chart is funny.

(25-05-2012 07:01 AM)Polakmaly Wrote:  Hello.
Interesting topic here. Seems you are a smart person.
So I also got a few questions for you.

Thank you for asking, Polakmaly, and I will respond to them as soon as my answers are ready. It will probably take a few days or longer, though.
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25-05-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(25-05-2012 04:01 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote:  
(23-05-2012 04:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  This is such unspeakably cruel punishment, it is not necessary to do this to prevent further occurrances, people are not so very evil that only the most incredible agony will keep them from committing an act.

I simply cannot understand how any human being can do this to another human being. There must be something missing, some basic human decency and compassion.


The punishments in Islam are indeed very harsh, but human experience shows that if a punishment was to act as a deterrent, then it has to be severe and harsh. Secondly, yes, we should have love and compassion for one another be it a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and Islam definitely encourages that. I believe that compassion has such a great power that it can even soften the hearts of the pitiless. But, when it comes to crimes and certain acts that harm other people's lives, we are taught to be strict against the instigators by punishing them so that such acts do not spread and become common in society. Logically, it is better to be severe to one and save many than to be lenient and thereby destroy the lives of millions of others.

In the West, the institution of marriage has significantly declined and many of the marriages end up in divorce. Even families have broken down resulting in much tension and the disintegration of close relationships. More importantly, Muslims believe that adultery is a breach of the greatest 'trust' that exists between a man and a woman and it leads to disastrous consequences such as breakdown of family ties, depression, domestic violence, child abuse, rape, suicide, etc. That's why, in Islam, there is a harsh penalty for adultery. Islamic law aims to ensure the stability of society from its very base - the family - which is the nucleus of society that breeds society's values and holds together the various institutions in society.

And obviously, Islam has never declared that its punishments can completely elimate crimes from our very foundations. It is impossible to think of a society without crime, but, it is an acknowledged fact that the severe punishments according to Islamic jurisprudence have caused the rate of crime to be decreased significantly compared to Western societies. The more severe a punishment is, the more effective it is in deterring crimes, and the more effective a punishment is in deterring crimes, the better.

That being said, I think that the disagreement between you and me in regards to the morality of stoning to death is mainly due to our subjective judgements on the nature of such punishments and/or what they should be. I have explained my position on this topic (along with reasons), and I responded to your same comments several times in this thread. But, stiil, if you have anything else to say about this, then I'm willing to listen and respond to them.


I kept hoping you would say something that would soften my outlook on this - but I guess there is nothing to say anymore.

These type punishments were also used in the old testament - and this is one of the many reasons I do not believe in religion. Because, even if there were a god, and even if he were the one of the first testament, I would never worship such an inhumane being.

Likewise, I cannot agree that such cruelty is necessary for any reason. All I can say is that I hope such prractices will be discontinued, which would change my view of Islam fundamentally.

Thank you for the conversation, you are a patient human being.

One other thing, I wonder why you came here?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-05-2012, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2012 06:50 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Internet Mullah, you are a patient and polite man and I congratulate you for that. (Much more so than me, for example.)

I assume you are here to learn as well as share. That being the case, I will do my best to help you, and hope you will read the following with an open mind.

You are open to the idea you have been brainwashed. I think it is very clear that is the case. Your accounts of Mohammed, your explanations for immoral Islamic teachings, your excuses for the bad behaviour of many of your fellow Islamists all reek of "spin." Many Christians do exactly the same. You come up with excuses, explanations and interpretations, which are second hand, and all heavily manufactured to hide the truth...that the origins of your beliefs are nothing but a web of fabricated nonsense.

I suggest you step back, take a breath, clear your head and start thinking clearly. An illiterate 7th century desert dwelling empire building tyrant who built up an army for himself and went on to ransack and impoverish his neighbours is interesting history at best, and that's it. To imagine this dude's hallucinations and delusions and convenient revelations are sourced from a god invented by the ancient Jews, a god who you have never seen, touched or heard is an indication of what a good job they have done on you.

You, and the people you quote, including Karen Armstrong, keep referring back to the supposed wonderful, rhythmic, multi layered beauty of the Koran, which can only be appreciated in its original language. Blah blah blah. Some poet(s), almost certainly not the big M, pieced it together. For every commentator who waxes lyrical, there are two who consider it utter tripe. So...who really cares what it says? Any thinking person who hasn't been brainwashed knows this stuff is fabricated mumbo jumbo.

You need to take your rose coloured glasses off. You need to be honest enough to yourself about the secondary gains you get from promoting gibberish. Ask yourself "am I making any money out of this? Am I getting status? Sex? Power? Prestige? Respect?" Or..."am I being used by others so they get these things?" Organised religion is a power game. When you cut through all the bullshit, it is always at the end of the day about power and money. The little people believe the hype and get used. I challenge you to break free from the system. Don't be a power monger and don't be a little person. And, most importantly, don't indoctrinate the children with toxic beliefs. That obviously happened to you, but you have the power and the intelligence to break the cycle.

I will eagerly await your response, and will be particularly interested to hear whether you are big enough to accept this criticism. Please be honest. And real. Regards, Mark
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25-05-2012, 07:19 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(25-05-2012 04:03 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 06:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You got some details for how you derived that statistical estimate? Feels likely to me you just pulled that number outta your ass.

That is not a statistical estimation, but a subjective estimation, Girlyman.

Different people will estimate the probability for God's existence differently.

And apparently different people will have different definitions of probability. Wink

(25-05-2012 05:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Internet Mullah, you are a patient and polite man and I congratulate you for that.

He gets kudos for that. I don't see no AbdelZ in him at all. 'Course I haven't tested his mettle yet by going all vulgar hairless talking ape on him, haven't needed to. Thumbsup

#sigh
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26-05-2012, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2012 02:58 AM by Internet Mullah.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(25-05-2012 04:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  One other thing, I wonder why you came here?

I came here to challenge and to examine the soundness of my own beliefs. I am interested in debating people with opposing opinions. Also, I like to share what I know with others. I feel that there is more value in my knowledge when I share it with others. I feel that it is healthy to express my beliefs without actually forcing them onto anyone. So, that's why I'm here.

As for the whole punishment thing, which I was discussing with you, your main contention is that these punishments are too cruel and inhumane. But, my contention is that they are cruel for a good reason - i.e. for the purpose of deterring crimes - and history shows that harsher punishments are more effective in preventing crimes than more lenient ones.

It seems that we have both said what we wanted to say on this topic. Even though I disagree with you, Dom, I respect your opinions nonetheless.

(25-05-2012 05:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I will eagerly await your response, and will be particularly interested to hear whether you are big enough to accept this criticism.

I read your post and I will think about it more before I reply. I appreciate your sincere and thoughtful post, Mark. So, I will respond to them accordingly.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that you're quite eager to deconvert me from Islam, right? If that is true, Mark, then I don't think that's a bad thing at all, because you are honest and I think that your intentions are good. I'm just saying that this is something that I have sensed in your discussions with me. But, either way, I congratulate you for putting the time and effort to debate with me so politely. I will try my best to read everything with an open mind and I will reply to them as honestly as I can.

(25-05-2012 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And apparently different people will have different definitions of probability. Wink

I agree with that.

(25-05-2012 07:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't see no AbdelZ in him at all. 'Course I haven't tested his mettle yet by going all vulgar hairless talking ape on him, haven't needed to. Thumbsup

Thanks, GM, but don't hesitate to go all vulgar hairless talking ape on me whenever you feel like it. I am quite used to it. Wink
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