Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
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07-05-2012, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 12:43 PM by Internet Mullah.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(25-04-2012 12:50 AM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Why are battles contained in the Quran?

Well, these were a part of the revelations given to Muhammad when God was instructing him in the manners of planning and engaging in military actions. God affirms that He will suffice, aid, support, and help the believers against their enemies, even if their enemies are numerous and have sufficient supplies, while the believers are few. We believe that God was helping Muhammad and his servants in their struggle against the enemies and that's why they were so successful. So, the point is that all these battle verses have a historical background them just like many other verses in the Quran.

For example, in the earliest stage of Islam, Muhammad began peacefully calling the people of Mecca to accept Islam. He did this for about 10 years without fighting or killing anyone. At a certain time, however, because of their belief, Muhammad and his followers were strongly opposed. Several Meccan chiefs and leaders formed an alliance a plot an attack against the Muslims. Then, the situation started to become worse until the Muslims were forced to migrate. Muhammad and his followers fled from Mecca to Medina and they were pursued closely by the assassins for days. They were severely tortured, expelled, had their property seized, and even killed to make them give up their religion. Despite all this, Muslims still did not waver from the Islamic principles of peace, non-violence, and passive resistance. In Medina, the Islamic community was established and Muhammad continued his peaceful mission of calling people to Islam.

However, the Meccan alliance was persistent on extinguishing Islam. Several major military campaigns were waged to attack Medina in order to annihilate the Muslims. When the well-equipped armies of aggressors were forming on the horizon, far outnumbering the Muslims, God gave Muslims the permission for the first time to defend their life and faith by taking arms. Eventually, the pagan armies of Mecca were then defeated by Muslims, and the Muslims were inferior in numbers and less equipped, according to what I learned, but they were still victorious against the larger army.

So, it was only after the Meccan alliance violated the treaty, that the Quranic verse ordering Muslims to Jihad against this tyranny was revealed.

(25-04-2012 12:50 AM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Like surah 8 or 9. I can't remember what they're called but they're quite violent and I'm just wondering why they're in there in the first place.

Surah 8 (Al-Anfal) was revealed after the Battle of Badr, which was a struggle against some of the enemies of Islam among the Quraish tribe in Mecca, and it is known to be the most significant battle in Islamic history. Surah 9 (At-Taubah) was revealed in relation to the events that took place after the Peace Treaty of Hudaibiyah. You can learn more about the period of revelation, the historical background, the theme and purpose, and the interconnections between them for all the chapters of the Quran at the link below:

Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Quran

There are many people who think that the following verse from Surah 9 to prove that the Quran is telling Muslims to kill people if they don't convert to Islam.

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (9:05)

However, you cannot come to a full understanding of the context of the verse by ignoring the key verses that come before it and after it. In the first two verses of the same chapter, it says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (or pagans) of Mecca: "There is a declaration of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom you have contracted mutual alliances. Go then, for four months, to and fro throughout the land. But know that you cannot frustrate Allah and that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him" (Surah 9, verses 1-2). From this, we know that the Muslims were prohibited from committing any acts of violence against the pagans as long as they do not break the peace treaty. This is supported by another verse in the Quran which says, "And if they incline towards peace, then incline to it (also), and trust in Allah" (8:61).

So, in light of the context of the verse (9:05), if you read the previous verses, it becomes clear that the pagans were not killed just because of rejecting Islam. The surah itself was revealed after a number of treaties over a period of years between the Quraysh and the Muslims which had been broken by the pagans of the Quraysh. In it, the Muslims are commanded to hold to their side of the treaty with those pagans who have not betrayed them for the duration of the treaty. There is then to be a grace period of 4 months (in the months of Dhul-Qa'dah, Dhul-Hijjah, Muharram and Rajab which are the sanctified months in the Islamic calendar), and only then, if there is still no sign of them stopping their treachery and persecution of Muslims, then a war is to be declared after the grace period is over so that the Muslims are able to defend themselves and to defend their freedom of religion.

More importantly, the pagans were to be forgiven if they repent. Also, if during the war a Muslim was approached by a pagan asking for asylum, he was ordered to grant it to him, and to give him the opportunity to hear the word of God. Even if the pagan hears the word and does not accept it, he was still obliged to be protected, as stated in the next verse, "If any amongst the Pagans ask you for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God, and then escort him to a place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know" (9:06).

(25-04-2012 12:50 AM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Furthermore, I saw you answer a question about not being able to plagerise things. That's a lie and you probably know that as well. The main method of learning at that time was oral recitation. He'd only have to learn a few facts every month if it was written over 23 years.

You are right. The main method for learning in those days used to be oral recitation. But, still, this doesn't mean that Muhammad wrote the Quran by plagiarizing anything.

Also, from a scholarly perspective, there is no evidence that Muhammad was learning about other scriptures by reading nor that he was being taught these things by a teacher or anyone else. It is known that he had no education on such matters. Everyone during his time knew this because he used to be surrounded by his companions, wives, and many other people. He was a well-known person during his time, and people used to follow him wherever he went, and even some of his enemies used to spy on him to see if he was hiding any secrets. And yet, no one was ever able to prove that Muhammad's claim of revelation was a fabrication. If it was a fabrication, then I think it is very unlikely that he could have lived his whole life that way and yet gain so many followers without ever being caught by once.

(25-04-2012 12:50 AM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Is Abu Bakr important in Islamic history?

Yes, Abu Bakr was important in Islamic history because he a very close Companion of the Prophet, and he was the first Caliph in Islam (according to Sunnis). He knew the Prophet better than any other man. He knew how honest and upright the Prophet was. Also, he was the first adult male to convert to Islam, and as soon as he became a Muslim, he immediately began to preach Islam to others. Abu Bakr also served as a trusted advisor and he was involved in several campaigns such as the Battle of Uhud, the Battle of the Trench, the Battle of Khaybar, the Conquest of Mecca, and several others which he provided help in with his wealth and preparation.

He also played an important in preserving the Quran in written form. After his victory over Musaylimah in the Battle of Yamama fought in 632 (which took place shorty after Muhammad's death), Umar, the next Caliph, saw that many of the Muslims who had memorized the Quran had been killed in the battle. So, he was worried that the Quran may get lost or corrupted, and that's why he requested Abu Bakr to authorize a compilation and preservation of the Book in a written format. Upon hearing his request, Abu Bakr agreed, and thus he ordered for the Quran to be copied from the various different manuscripts on to a common material, known as a suhuf, which was in the shape of sheets and tied with strings. He made a committee headed by Zayd ibn Thabit which included Umar and the memorizers of the Quran (called hafiz) to collect all the verses of the Quran from anywhere they can find. After collecting all the verses, Zayd ibn Thabit and the members of his committee checked and verified the reading by comparing with those who had memorized the whole Quran.

As a said in my OP, the Sunnis believe that the Prophet chose Abu Bakr to be the first Caliph, while the Shiites believe that he chose Ali as the first Caliph, and more importantly, that Ali was the Imam - a word used to refer to the person chosen as a leader of all the faithful. The disagreement on the question of who is the first Caliph is what divided the Muslim world into two great sects, namely, the Sunni and the Shiites.

(27-04-2012 08:33 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  First clarify the requirements of an adulteress' confession. Does the other person confessing sentence you to death as well?

No, the other person's confession of your adultery (just using an example) will not sentence you to death as long you do not confess that he or she is telling the truth. Either that, or the one who accused you of adultery should bring to the court 3 other witnesses who saw the two of you having sexual intercourse. If he cannot provide 3 other witnesses (a total of 4), then there can be no punishment for you, unless you confess your own adultery. Also, according to the legal tradition, if a Muslim accuses another Muslim of adultery, and he cannot bring 4 witnesses to confess that, then he is to be lashed 80 times for making that accusation even if he is telling the truth. The reason for this is to prevent Muslims from revealing another person's sins or crime without providing a strong evidence. Islam does not encourage the spread of other people's mischief and bad deeds even when there is evidence.

Obviously, the four witness thing is not to catch every single person who had sex outside of marriage, but to make sure they don't do it in public, or boast about it, so that such a thing never becomes socially acceptable. If individuals get caught by four witnesses in the act, then it certainly implies that they do not care for their honor nor do they have any shame. It is only in a situation where one does not even care for his honor and shame that he does not take any precautions to hide his indecency by turning off the lights or seeking a place where no one, not even one person let alone four, could witness the act.

Also, it is not true that a confession to the spouse about adultery would entail punishment because the spouse should not bring it to the attention of the judge in the first place. In other words, if someone committed adultery, and then repented to God, and confessed to the interested parties as a spouse/victim, then the preferred thing is for those parties to resolve the issue between themselves and not bring it to the judge who would be obligated to implement the punishment. If convinced of the repentance, no one should not bring the crime to the attention of a judge. But, if an adulterer gets away with it, and doesn't repent to God either, then he or she will be punished for it in the next life (which is going to be more severe).

(27-04-2012 08:33 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  On the concept of stealing, the Koran holds that living is the most important law, and in it posits the idea that stealing food when you need food is not a sin even though stealing is. Does this ever get factored into civil law or is it simply an ignored passage?

Yes, the Quran says that living is a very important law indeed, although not the most important one. However, I haven't come across any verse in the Quran which says that stealing food is permissible when you "need food" (nor for the purpose of survival). I'm not saying that it isn't, but I just haven't seen such a verse. If you did see something like that, then please point it out where it says that in the Quran.

In my opinion, however, a Muslim can steal what is enough for him to survive that day. In that case, it might be permissible. So, the hungry person should take only what he needs and should search for all possible ways to get food or other necessary items in a legal way. But still, stealing is still stealing, and that's why he must try to ask for an apology from the man from whom he has stolen, or ask for his apologies and tell him that he will try to return (or pay back) the value of whatever food that he stole as soon as possible.

That being said, I don't think that a person who is almost dying of hunger would actually have to steal food from another person, because he can just tell the person that he really needs to eat something and that he doesn't have money to buy the food (if that is the case). The starving man doesn't have to steal anything since the other person should willingly give food to him if he knows that this is a life or death situation.

(27-04-2012 08:33 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  As far as homosexuality, the arabic language only has a word for the man submitting as a connotation of gay (to my knowledge). Does the male penetrator still get punished, and what exactly is the restriction on women? Many arabic countries have a lot of same gendered physical interaction. Kissing and hugging are common actions. What is the stopping point?

Well, as far as I know, there is actually no word in the Quran that connotes gay or homosexual. What is clearly condemned in the Quran is same-sex intercourse, but not same sex marriage. Even in the past, according to the books of Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence), many Muslims already accepted that a man can be sexually aroused by another man, and that's why their prohibition was against anal penetration only. They accepted as a natural thing for males to have a sexual attraction to other males and for females to have a sexual attraction to other females. That's why they allowed kissing and hugging between Muslims of the same gender, and these are common actions even today, as you said.

Secondly, although the Quran does not explicitly state that same-sex marriage is forbidden - it clearly condemns the actions of the people of Lut (or Lot) - while specifically mentioning their sexual activities with men instead of women. At the same time, the Quran makes repeated references on marriage to women and specific mention of the category of women that are impermissible to marry. Whenever the Quran gives an advice on marriage, it always talks about heterosexual marriage. Given those facts, which are repeated a number of times, along with the hadith literature and the attitude of the Companions of the Prophet towards homosexuality, the strongest opinion amongst Muslims and scholars is that same-sex marriage is prohibited.

My statement that the Quran does not explicitly state that same-sex marriage is prohibited does not mean that it does allow it. Rather, the fact that the Quran forbids same-sex intercourse logically necessitates that same-sex marriage should be forbidden also (or not recommended, at least) since we know that same-sex marriage would very likely lead to or result in the activity which is condemned (i.e. same-sex intercourse).

There are some Muslims who argue that the Quran does allow gay marriage according to a verse which says, "And those who guard their chastity, except in the case of their mates (azwajihim) or those whom their right hands possess - for then, they are not to be blamed" (Surah 70, verses 29-30). The debate is on the word "zawj," which is defined linguistically as when two or more people, of any sex, become a unit. So, this means that zawj does not have to be always made up of people from the two sexes. Two people of the same sex can form a zawj because it is not a gender specific noun. So, some Muslims infer that the verse includes gays as well. However, if we combine all the points that I mentioned above, the word "zawj" and the word "azwajihim" (azwaj being the plural of zawj) is actually used in reference to the "mates" that God has "created for them" since the Quran already condemns the people of Lut for desiring to have sex with the same gender, talks of marriage as a heterosexual bond only, and that same-sex intercourse is prohibited for Muslims (hence logically making same-sex marriage something to be prevented as well). Therefore, the word "zawj," in the context of marriage, refers exclusively to women when men are being addressed in the Quranic vernacular. This is what is agreed upon by the majority of scholars.

What is the punishment for gay sex an lesbian sex? It is not mentioned in the Quran. There are some Sunni qadis (or judges) who use the same punishment as for adultery. Another group of qadis use a milder punishment than adultery such as limited lashing, imprisonment, or anything else short of death because: (1) There is no risk for pregnancy and therefore the danger to society is smaller; (2) It is not adultery and therefore the punishment has to be milder; and (3) There is no mention of a punishment in the Quran for same-sex intercourse although it is prohibited.

That being said, some of the scholars of the past allowed marriage of a khuntha (intersex person) to a man or woman of his/her own choice. This was not exactly a heterosexual marriage, but that is allowed, since we cannot classify them into the male/female category. I will talk more about this in the comments below.

(27-04-2012 08:33 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Lastly as with most religions the roles of men and women are clearly defined. What about those who are neither male nor female? They've always existed yet never been accounted for. Are people who do not fit the normative characteristics killed? What about transsexuals?

Before I go to the topic of intersex and transsexuals, I would just like to correct you that the roles of men and women in Islam are not clearly defined. In one of my earlier posts, when I said that men and women have their own roles, that was only my opinion (like many others), and that is mainly due to a different interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths. However, after doing a little more investigation on this topic, I learned that I was misinformed about that because the Quran doesn't say anywhere for women to do this and that and for men to do this and that, in clear and specific terms. There are indeed Muslims who believe that men and women have their own separate boxes according to Islam (while others disagree), but that is because some of them are conservative, others are liberal, and others fall somewhere between, although all claim that their views are based on Islam. That's why different Muslims see women's roles in different ways.

Some Muslims of a more traditional (conservative) position argue that women’s roles in Muslim societies should be restricted. The primary task of women, according to this view, is to be at home as wives and mothers. On the other hand, other Muslims say that the conservative position has no basis in Islam. From their point of view, women should be able to play a role equal to men in all areas of life and there should be no discrimination against them. They believe that women should have equal opportunities in all areas of education, political participation, and decision making in society. They argue for absolute equality. In fact, even in most Muslim societies, men and women are equal before the law. Both have access to education, employment, and participation in the political system. In several Muslim societies, women have held the highest office in the country and they have been prime ministers and heads of state in key nations such as Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Turkey, for example.

Coming to your question about those who are neither male nor female, Muslims recognize that there is a group of people who do not fit into the normal heterosexual category, namely, the hermaphrodites (or intersex people). In Arabic, these people are commonly known as kuntha ("hermaphrodite"), or similarly, mukhannath ("effeminate"). From a psychological and a medical stance, khuntha refers to an individual born with the reproductive parts of both a male and a female, while mukhannath refers to a man who has an appearance of woman in physical features, or a man who believes that he is a woman (mentally) but has the body of a male. These are some of the main characteristics of intersex people.

As far as I know, intersex people are not given any special roles in Islam. Maybe there is, but I haven't come across any sources or evidence for that. I think that the same thing is true for transgenders. They are not assigned any specific roles according to my knowledge.

On a related note, in the case of transgenders, there are some Muslims who think that a sex reassignment surgery should be avoided at all times, while others think that it should be allowed for cases where it is needed. Those who are against it, reason that a sex change through operation is something sinful because this is an act of "changing God's creation." In my opinion, however, that is a poor and an unsupported argument because there are many instances where Muslims do change God's creation, such as by performing male circumcision, for example. We already accept that we have to do changes for health reasons, including changing the structure of the heart or correcting variations in the genital organs depending on the situation.

Also, there are various Islamic rulings that allow sex change operation if it is determined that it is necessary. I think that the reasoning is that if a male was born in a females body (or vice versa), then this is a disorder. The cure for this is a sex change operation. Then again, as I mentioned earlier, there is a difference of opinion amongst Muslims on the question of whether or not sex change operations are allowed in Islam. I am of the opinion that it is allowed when necessary for the reasons that I stated above (although with some skepticism). You can learn more about the Islamic legalities and the different opinions on this subject at the article below:

Sexual Reassignment in Islamic Law: The Dilemma of Transsexuals

(25-04-2012 07:11 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  Why would you be a Muslim in the modern World?
The whole of the Quran is little more than hate speech. So why would you follow its "teachings"!?
Isn't it time to wash the sand out of you vaginas and move out of the dark ages?

Well, I do not think that Islam is restricted for people living in the dark ages only. It is a religion for all times and for all people. I do understand why non-Muslims think that Islam is a "backward" religion and thus not compatible with the modern world. However, to be honest, I do not feel that my adherence to Islam is holding me back in any way. I go to work, eat, sleep, watch television, do computer, study, listen to music, interact with non-Muslims, and do many other things without feeling restricted. There are certain things which I do have to stay away from, thus making me feel that I have less freedom, but I believe those prohibitions are for my own good and that's why it's not too hard to avoid them.

As for the Quran being a little more that hate speech, I'm sorry, mysticjbyrd, but I simply do not agree your sentiment. On the contrary, the Quran encourages us to act with kindness and generosity to people regardless of their religious background. For the average Muslim, Islam is a religion of peace. It does not encourage the use of violence against non-Muslims. In fact, it encourages peaceful and harmonious relations with others. Islam stresses that all human beings are created by God, are equal before Him, and have descended from the same parents: Adam and Eve. The Prophet himself emphasized many times that human beings cannot claim superiority over one another just on the basis of color, language, ethnicity, or race. There are many references to this in both the Quran and Hadith.

It is true that the Quran considers certain forms of religion, such as polytheism (belief in many gods), as unacceptable, but it recognizes the right of polytheists to practice their religion. The Quran even tells Muslims that they should not ridicule the deities of the polytheists. It also criticizes the views expressed by some Christians and some Jews for not being in line with the teachings of Jesus or of the Biblical prophets. But, Islam does not criticize the religion of Christianity nor Judaism. In fact, it refers to the Christians and Jews as "People of the Book" (or Ahlul-Kitaab), and tells us to treat their scriptures with reverence.
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07-05-2012, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 05:57 PM by Internet Mullah.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(28-04-2012 07:04 AM)Dom Wrote:  Making a public display of this, and allowing bystanders to pick up a stone and participate appeals to the most atrocious human attribute - pleasure in torture. I have seen clips of people picking up these stones with big grins on their face.

I understand the reason for your repulsion of stoning. I, too, think that stoning someone to death is very brutal. I seriously wouldn't want to pick up a rock and throw it at anyone. It hurts just to think about it. But, I still believe that this is a law from God because it is mentioned in many hadiths and that's why we have to accept it as a part of our religion. Also, whether a certain punishment for a crime is just or unjust is subjective. For example, I think that the same applies for the idea of God punishing non-believers in Hell for eternity. Do I think that non-believers deserve to be punished in Hell? No. However, I know that my opinion of what is brutal and/or unjust is not the final word. I am not God, and I cannot think like God does, and that's why I don't know by what standards He implements punishments on his creatures and whether or not these things are actually moral.

(28-04-2012 07:04 AM)Dom Wrote:  You say you feel sadness for the victim. You should feel outrage. You should feel the need to help. This is a life being destroyed in unspeakable agony. There is no reason for that.

Yes, I feel sadness for the victim, but not outraged because I believe that this is one of the divine commandments in my religion.

The stoning thing is similar to the situation when God Abraham told to sacrifice his own son by slaughtering him, according to Islamic belief. This is what God told his Prophet to do, and the Prophet was willing to do it, although to many people today this may seem like a very crazy and barbaric. Was that a moral thing to do? Almost every one of you will say no. But, to Abraham, it was an act of faith when he was attempting to sacrifice his son. To him, it was the morally right thing to do because this was a message from God. But, later, when Abraham submitted to God's message, He told him to stop and offered a ram to sacrifice instead of his son.

(28-04-2012 06:53 PM)tazmin98 Wrote:  Why do Muslims believe the Illuminati and Freemason is out to get them?

I never actually heard that before from any Muslim that I met.

(28-04-2012 06:53 PM)tazmin98 Wrote:  All my Muslim friends (or the ones I am acquainted with) believe that. It gets scary when they believe wholeheartedly that secret societies hates Muslims. How would they know if they are a secret?

Again, I haven't talked to any Muslim who thinks that secret societies are out to get them. All I know is that there are Muslims who think that people who are opposed to their faith may be targeting, or certain non-Muslims and/or atheists. But, they don't have to be people from secret societies like the Illuminati and Freemason. I don't really know why Muslims would think that.

(28-04-2012 06:53 PM)tazmin98 Wrote:  Why does the people of your faith get offended so easily by the people who don't even follow your faith?

Maybe that is true for many Muslims, but not for all Muslims because that would be a blanket statement. We know that different Muslims may react differently.
If you want to see my full answer, I answered the same question in this post (in my response to Crusher).

(28-04-2012 06:53 PM)tazmin98 Wrote:  People criticise Christians and make jokes but they don't all go ape shit and even mellow about it.

Yes, I agree that many Muslims get offended by jokes which have a religious connotation behind them. But, I think that this is the same for Christians as well.

(28-04-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How about you come clean about yourself? Are you really a Mullah? Why, exactly, are you here? (Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are, and I hope you stay.) Are you trying to spread Islam? If so, why? Are you hoping to learn something by being here, or is it all about teaching atheists? Do you ever have little glimpses of light shining through when you doubt the dogma?

- Nah, I'm not a real mullah, hence the word "internet" at the beginning of my username.
- I am here mainly to encourage myself to learn more about Islam, to analyze my own beliefs, and to hear atheists' arguments on God and religion (along with discussing with them).
- Do I have any doubts about my religion? Yes, and that is one of the things that constitutes faith. If I didn't have any doubts, then that wouldn't be faith.

(30-04-2012 03:33 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Do you ever get sick of trying to work out what your religion expects of you? When you're having a crap, do you need the Koran to tell you which hand should wipe your arse? Mohammed to tell you when to have sex and with whom?
Allah telling you what to eat and when? How to shave and how often to bend over? What to wear on Wednesday?

- No, I don't get sick of trying to work out what my religion expects of me.
- No, I don't use the Quran to tell me which hand I should wipe my arse with when having a crap.
- Yes, because the teachings of Muhammad and the Quran include certain rules on marriage and sex that Muslims are supposed to follow.
- Yes, only for the things that Allah has forbidden for us to eat.
- No, because there is nothing in the Quran that tells me how to shave or bend over.
- No, because that is not in the Quran either. I can pretty much wear anything that I like or that which feels comfortable to me.

(30-04-2012 03:33 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Do you ever tell god to fuck off and mind his own business? I would.

No, I never said that, and never would.

When I was a small kid, however, I only said a few bad things to God because I was feeling very angry at the moment. I don't remember why, nor what I said exactly, but I was just doing that to vent my anger. Then I felt bad and so I asked for His forgiveness. But, I never did that again.

Post numbers in which questions and/or comments are still pending: #s 40, 47, 54
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07-05-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
I sincerely appreciate your contributions here, Mullah. So I will give Islam the same courtesy that I give anyone else approaching me with metaphysical wares. Is the promise of a postmortem preservation of identity fundamental to your belief? And if so, can you please provide me with your rationale and any plausible mechanism of action.

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07-05-2012, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 07:13 PM by Chas.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(07-05-2012 11:28 AM)Internet Mullah Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 01:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  Still waiting on an actual answer to why any self-respecting woman would submit to the second-class status 'enjoyed' by women in Islam (or Christianity or Judaism or Mormonism or ...).
As you have already seen, I replied to that question in post # 29. You didn't respond to or refute any of those points. And I'm sorry, Chas, but I don't understand exactly what makes you think that that was not an "actual" answer. I have said everything that I wanted to say. Since you disagree, however, feel free to tell me which parts you disagree with and why. If you don't want to do that, then you can ask me another question.
I guess I found your answers off-point and borderline delusional.
Quote:Well, I think the reasons are pretty much the same as any man would.
Also, a woman can have intelligence and self-respect regardless of her
I don't think anyone with intelligence and self-respect can be a person of faith. (Unless they're delusional.)

Quote:In Islam, men have their own roles and women have their own roles. Men
have been given a role that they are more capable of doing, and women
have been given a role that they are more capable of doing.
This is really my point. Once one looks a t those roles, a woman of intelligence and self-respect should turn away in disgust.
Quote:Neither of these roles is inherently better than the other or "looked down" upon in Islam.
This is where you start becoming delusional.
Quote:Islam ensures equality between men and women.
This is patently false in any Islamic country.

Quote:Modern cultures enforces identicality on men and women.
No, modern culture provides identical opportunity for men and women. Not all men or all women want the same roles.
Quote:It ensures that in areas where women are natural leaders, men play a
supporting role and it ensures that in areas where men are natural
leaders, women play a supporting role.
Again, you wish to enforce roles defined by someone other than the individual.
Quote:Speaking of Muslim women, there are also many people who think that
Islam requires women to cover their entire body with a long garment as
well as their faces. And that is one of the most common reasons they
think that Muslim women are encouraged to be 'oppressed' in Islam or
made 'inferior' to men. However, in my opinion, and according to many
knowledgeable scholars, the wearing of this special garment (known as a
"burqa") is actually a tribal and cultural practice that began centuries
before the time of Islam, and has no authority in the Quran.
You continue to describe an Islam that does not exist in Islamic countries - only in countries where Islam can't enforce its will.

These objections also apply to any religion that has temporal power. Practitioners of Islam and Christianity have proven through history that they cannot be trusted with temporal power.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2012, 07:07 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 07:14 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(07-05-2012 06:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think anyone with intelligence and self-respect can be a person of faith.

You are mistaken, brother. I work with many. Brilliant scientists who still cling to their faith. Do I understand it? No. Can they explain it? No. Do they understand it? No. ... Don't mean they're stupid or self-loathing and don't seem to impinge on their brilliant scientist abilities. Wink

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07-05-2012, 07:12 PM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(07-05-2012 07:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-05-2012 06:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think anyone with intelligence and self-respect can be a person of faith.

You are mistaken, brother. I work with many. Brilliant scientists who still hold onto faith. Do I understand it? No. Can they explain it? No. Do they understand it? No. ... Don't mean they're stupid or self-loathing.
Good point. I meant to qualify it with "unless delusional".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2012, 07:20 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 07:23 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(07-05-2012 07:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-05-2012 07:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You are mistaken, brother. I work with many. Brilliant scientists who still hold onto faith. Do I understand it? No. Can they explain it? No. Do they understand it? No. ... Don't mean they're stupid or self-loathing.
Good point. I meant to qualify it with "unless delusional".

Delusional doesn't feel quite right. ... More like an untenable compartmentalization. But it ain't something you necessarily need to deal with early on. You can still be a brilliant scientist. Wink

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07-05-2012, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2012 09:12 PM by ahoy.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
(07-05-2012 05:54 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote:  
(28-04-2012 07:04 AM)Dom Wrote:  Making a public display of this, and allowing bystanders to pick up a stone and participate appeals to the most atrocious human attribute...
But, I still believe that this is a law from God because it is mentioned in many hadiths and that's why we have to accept it as a part of our religion.

If it is a law of God, let God be the judge.

If it is a law of man, let man be the judge.

You agree?

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08-05-2012, 01:06 AM
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Chas, according to my knowledge, I think that about 90% of the Islamic countries are not oppressive toward women. As of now, there are only two nations in the Muslim world that, to my knowledge, attempt to implement religious law on a complete scale. These are, namely, Saudi Arabia and Iran. The government in those countries enforce strict rules on women and they ban them from driving, from going to work, and force them to wear burqas, but the fact is that such a system of ruling a country is not encouraged by Islam.

As for your comment on being "delusional," GirlyMan said it well. There are many intelligent people who are religious as well.

Ahoy, I agree with that. Why? Because, as human beings, we cannot always judge what is good and what is bad and who deserves what from God's point of view.

Girlyman, thank you for the compliment. And you asked a good question. So, I'm going to give my thoughts on that question in the next post.
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08-05-2012, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2012 01:19 AM by ddrew.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
alright... look .. I know there's been pages of responces to this OP ... however..
I'm not going to wade through the pages of posts to get up to speed.. I read the OP that is all I need..
How the fuck says your right? Your Muhammad? ... were you there.. did you see his miracles.. do you really believe the crap that was written about him?, How do you know it's true.... ? where is the scientific proof? .. I ask the same shit about Jesus.. where is the damned proof?? There is NONE.. NO PROOF.. NO EVIDENCE.. what is written is by kings and dominating rulers that wished to simply CONTROL the masses.. and make some cash on the side...
Do some serious research into it..... if it says one thing.. QUESTION IT!! is the person stating it real? or even correct in their findings ?? the Koran and Holy Bible are both drived by the same original text written by the ancient Jews.... in which that original so called text has been proven with out a doubt to be FALSE!! Noah and his imbreed family never existed.. nore was there a world wide flood... *i gotta say ... putt the head outta yer ass on this one* but you all cry the same bullshit that doesn't exist... .. there is no GOD... Allah... anything supernatural in this reality .... STOP heeding to the lies of your ancestors that are dead... and were too stupid to realize the difference between faith and reality!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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