Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
20-01-2013, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2013 12:23 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions]
Internet Mullah has failed on many counts.
1. Not one of the historical points, or questions rasied in the Spencer videos were addressed.
2. The mullah asserts things, but never offers scholarly support for his opinions. He thinks if he contradicts, (without a supporting reference) the point is made or refuted. It is not. He never offers scholarly material to support his opinions. Just opinions. No supporting evidence. At all. There were hundreds of gods worshipped in Mecca when Muhammud arrived there. No one disputes that. Yet he continues to assert that Islam developed from/in a monotheistic environment. That is historically false. Every historian of the ancient Near East knows that, and every archaeologist knows that. The fact that even Muhammud could even introduce other (divine) deities, however temporarily, (in the Statanic verses), and have them even considered, PROVES that the culture was accepting of possible NON-monotheism, a priori.
3. He was 100 % proven incorrect in his assertion that Morey introduced the idea that Allah developed from pagan roots. And just because Morey was a Christian fundamentalist, does not, of necessity, make him wrong. His points have to be refuted, with history, and references. In fact it is not suprising that Islam lays claim to Yahweh, as a continuous revelation. It was a political move. Every time Islam (in it's early days) came into contact with a new deity (religion system) they accepted it and said that that god, (or chief god) was just anoother manifestation of Allah, (as they did with Yahweh). That is why, in the early conquests in Islam, there is no record of demanding the conquered peoples convert. As long as they were monotheiistic, that's all that was required. So, it's not ONLY Yahweh that was declared to be Allah, but many others also. It was the conquest pattern. Of course Mohammud was wrong about many things, including the mythical Abraham. Abraham has been debunked by archaeology, (Friedman et all). Scholars of the Old Testament know that Abraham was a mythical figure, (who predated the formation of the Tribal Confederation as seen in Judges, first united by one of the first actual historical judges, (Deborah) around 1100 BCE, and his, (Abraham's) various family members originated from different places, (archaeologically proven), in Canaan, thus were not actually related, (by kinship bonds). Abraham was used when the priests were combining the sources in Exile, writing the mythic history of the nation of Israel. He was not an historical figure. There is no evidence for him, as such. Just as Moses, he "appears" in the J and E sources as part of the mythic history. Mohammud assumes Abraham was real. We know he was not, and in fact, his "migration" from Ur, during the *supposed* period he did so, is not historically possible, for many reasons. Not the least of which, was that camels were not used by non-royals/non-high-classes at that time, in the ancient Near East, for the migration to occur.
The following points from my long post, were among those never addressed by the Mullah. He says he did. He did not.
"Allah is found ... in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)
"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshiped, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)
"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)
"Ilah ... appears in pre-Islamic poetry ... By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093).
"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)
The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)
Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)
Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p.31)
Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)
Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)
According to Middle East scholar E.M.Wherry, whose translation of the Qur'an is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Baal, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabrück: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p.36).
"In ancient Arabia, the sun-god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah (op.cit., Islam, p.7)
"The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to the other titles that could be given to him.
"Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called 'the daughters of Allah'. These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
"The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities" (Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers, 1977, pp.50-51).
The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend records:
"Along with Allah, however, they worshiped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Allah" (op.cit., I:61).
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name ... corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).
In Mesopotamia the Sumerian god Nanna, named Sîn by the Akkadians, was worshiped in particular in Ur, where he was the chief god of the city, and also in the city of Harran in Syria, which had close religious links with Ur. The Ugaritic texts have shown that there a moon deity was worshiped under the name yrh. On the monuments the god is represented by the symbol of the crescent moon. At Hazor in Palestine a small Canaanite shrine of the late Bronze Age was discovered which contained a basalt stele depicting two hands lifted as if in prayer to a crescent moon, indicating that the shrine was dedicated to the moon god.
The worship of stellar deities, instead of Yahweh, was always a temptation faced by the Israelites (Dt.4:19; Jer.7:18; Am.5:26; Ac.7:43). But Yahweh is at the zenith of the heavens (Job 22:12).
"The Quraysh tribe into which Mohammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.
"The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant rôle in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah."The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god" ( Morey, p.51).
Nabonidus (555-539 BC), was the last king of Babylon, and he built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's "stellar religion" has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various forms" (Some scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sin-ai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc.) Mecca was built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, "The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha", that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was confirmed by other well-known archeologists.
In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidah, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia (see map above). The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than 21 inscriptions with the name Sîn were found in this temple (see above left). An idol which is probably the moon-god himself was also discovered (see above right). This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists (See Richard Le Baron Bower Jr. and Frank P. Albright, Archaeological Discoveries in South Arabia, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1958, p.78ff; Ray Cleveland, An Ancient South Arabian Necropolis, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1965; Nelson Gleuck, Deities and Dolphins, New York, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 1965).
Worship of the Moon god continued in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Dr. Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names. The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."
The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.
THE classic scholarship in West on Qur'an :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28 (ignore the religious claims at the beginning, start at 1:00)
So, as far as I'm concerned, unless specific specialist, and reputable sources are used, and non-Quranic references used. the points I made stand.
Insufferable know-it-all. Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
I'm an agnostic. We cannot know if there really is a teapot orbiting the sun.
The following 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post:2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
Mark Fulton (02-02-2013), randomjen (09-05-2013)
|Messages In This Thread|
RE: Ask a Muslim [split from introductions] - Bucky Ball - 20-01-2013 03:54 PM