Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
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15-06-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 09:05 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 06:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Can I add an addendum: Are you a Ayn Rand Libertarian?

My best definition of Libertarian is supporting minimal government regulation of both social and economic issues.

Ayn Rand is caricatured to the point that some will reject all her ideas without consideration. Economically, she was rather extreme and believed in no regulation whatsoever other than rule of law type things like contract enforcement. I'm with earmuffs on the need to regulate monopolies since it is clear that monopolies prevent free markets from functioning. Rand would oppose regulating monopolies. Socially, she'd fit right in on a forum like this. She was a non-believer, and in general she felt it was none of the government's business to regulate moral issues. She was in favor of abortion rights, and though personally she had a problem with people who were gay, she advocated repealing all laws that targeted gay people. Her philosophy of self centered morality extends to the individual, advocating that the individual should primarily only be looking out for themselves. I don't agree with that part of her philosophy.

Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.


As for government programs I support, I support public education because it simply is necessary to have that in order to compete in the economy. A child has no control over its circumstances in life, and therefore the government is needed to provide public education so that upon graduation, that individual is prepared to fend for themselves. I do not support free education at the college level, but do support the concept of state schools that serve the purpose of providing affordable college education. These state schools often support the economy and provide research capacity for industries in the state. I do not support public health care for all. Social Security and Medicare I can support, if tepidly and if we increased age eligibility, because despite all the best laid plans, if someone suffers an economic setback near old age they may no longer have the capability to right the situation themselves. I say my support is tepid because people should in general plan for their own living expenses in retirement, and I think these programs should be considered welfare programs and not rights that all are entitled to.

I wish the right would quit mischaracterizing Social Security and Medicare as welfare or hand-outs.

I've been fucking paying for these for 40+ years. This is paid insurance.

So, yes, I am fucking entitled to these.

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15-06-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 09:05 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 06:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Can I add an addendum: Are you a Ayn Rand Libertarian?


Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.

This is their propaganda but is actually false, republicans are responsible for most expansion of governments and almost always increase the national debt where as under democrats the debt actually shrinks and government is smaller. I don't understand how you can be a libertarian and be a republican the invasion into personal liberty is so sever that the minor changes in business law are not worth it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 09:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 09:05 AM)BryanS Wrote:  My best definition of Libertarian is supporting minimal government regulation of both social and economic issues.

Ayn Rand is caricatured to the point that some will reject all her ideas without consideration. Economically, she was rather extreme and believed in no regulation whatsoever other than rule of law type things like contract enforcement. I'm with earmuffs on the need to regulate monopolies since it is clear that monopolies prevent free markets from functioning. Rand would oppose regulating monopolies. Socially, she'd fit right in on a forum like this. She was a non-believer, and in general she felt it was none of the government's business to regulate moral issues. She was in favor of abortion rights, and though personally she had a problem with people who were gay, she advocated repealing all laws that targeted gay people. Her philosophy of self centered morality extends to the individual, advocating that the individual should primarily only be looking out for themselves. I don't agree with that part of her philosophy.

Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.


As for government programs I support, I support public education because it simply is necessary to have that in order to compete in the economy. A child has no control over its circumstances in life, and therefore the government is needed to provide public education so that upon graduation, that individual is prepared to fend for themselves. I do not support free education at the college level, but do support the concept of state schools that serve the purpose of providing affordable college education. These state schools often support the economy and provide research capacity for industries in the state. I do not support public health care for all. Social Security and Medicare I can support, if tepidly and if we increased age eligibility, because despite all the best laid plans, if someone suffers an economic setback near old age they may no longer have the capability to right the situation themselves. I say my support is tepid because people should in general plan for their own living expenses in retirement, and I think these programs should be considered welfare programs and not rights that all are entitled to.

I wish the right would quit mischaracterizing Social Security and Medicare as welfare or hand-outs.

I've been fucking paying for these for 40+ years. This is paid insurance.

So, yes, I am fucking entitled to these.

Most people haven't "paid for what they get". Because the programs have been too slow to adjust to changing demographics, and so many people live decades on these programs when they were never intended to do this, many people have not paid into the system what they get out of it.

Actually, as a member of a younger generation, I'm paying for the generation retiring now to not work enough years to pay for their own benefits.

That said, I have no problem if people who actually need the benefit draw on it for the time they need it. I wish it were a welfare program so that it would only go to those who need it. You think Warren Buffet really needs that check?
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15-06-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 11:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 09:05 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.

This is their propaganda but is actually false, republicans are responsible for most expansion of governments and almost always increase the national debt where as under democrats the debt actually shrinks and government is smaller. I don't understand how you can be a libertarian and be a republican the invasion into personal liberty is so sever that the minor changes in business law are not worth it.

Civil libertarians like Dianne Feinstein, senior Democrat who thinks it's just grand to search a database of all the collected phone numbers without a warrant? Obama has been incredibly terrible on civil liberties, but the Dems who were critical of Bush have been silent about the Obama admin abuses far too long.

The government is both significantly larger and the deficits significantly larger under Obama. Not buying the smaller government/lower deficit argument. GOP screwed up royally under the Bush admin by growing government like they did, that is true. We could have used less wars during that time. Can't ignore the role the GOP congress had on Clinton admin's spending, or the Democratic Congress's role on Reagan's spending. You do understand that Congress spends the money, don't you?
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15-06-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 12:40 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 11:32 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  This is their propaganda but is actually false, republicans are responsible for most expansion of governments and almost always increase the national debt where as under democrats the debt actually shrinks and government is smaller. I don't understand how you can be a libertarian and be a republican the invasion into personal liberty is so sever that the minor changes in business law are not worth it.

Civil libertarians like Dianne Feinstein, senior Democrat who thinks it's just grand to search a database of all the collected phone numbers without a warrant? Obama has been incredibly terrible on civil liberties, but the Dems who were critical of Bush have been silent about the Obama admin abuses far too long.

The government is both significantly larger and the deficits significantly larger under Obama. Not buying the smaller government/lower deficit argument. GOP screwed up royally under the Bush admin by growing government like they did, that is true. We could have used less wars during that time. Can't ignore the role the GOP congress had on Clinton admin's spending, or the Democratic Congress's role on Reagan's spending. You do understand that Congress spends the money, don't you?

The government is smaller under obama by a lot. This is a long standing trend but if you want to go by what they say instead of what they do thats on you.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 12:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 12:40 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Civil libertarians like Dianne Feinstein, senior Democrat who thinks it's just grand to search a database of all the collected phone numbers without a warrant? Obama has been incredibly terrible on civil liberties, but the Dems who were critical of Bush have been silent about the Obama admin abuses far too long.

The government is both significantly larger and the deficits significantly larger under Obama. Not buying the smaller government/lower deficit argument. GOP screwed up royally under the Bush admin by growing government like they did, that is true. We could have used less wars during that time. Can't ignore the role the GOP congress had on Clinton admin's spending, or the Democratic Congress's role on Reagan's spending. You do understand that Congress spends the money, don't you?

The government is smaller under obama by a lot. This is a long standing trend but if you want to go by what they say instead of what they do thats on you.

You actually believe that, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...ubmissions


2013 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2012 by President Obama)[131]
2012 United States federal budget - $3.7 trillion (submitted 2011 by President Obama)
2011 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)
2010 United States federal budget - $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)
2009 United States federal budget - $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget - $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)
2007 United States federal budget - $2.8 trillion (submitted 2006 by President Bush)
2006 United States federal budget - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
2005 United States federal budget - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
2004 United States federal budget - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
2003 United States federal budget - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
2002 United States federal budget - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)
2001 United States federal budget - $1.9 trillion (submitted 2000 by President Clinton)
2000 United States federal budget - $1.8 trillion (submitted 1999 by President Clinton)
1999 United States federal budget - $1.7 trillion (submitted 1998 by President Clinton)
1998 United States federal budget - $1.7 trillion (submitted 1997 by President Clinton)
1997 United States federal budget - $1.6 trillion (submitted 1996 by President Clinton)
1996 United States federal budget - $1.6 trillion (submitted 1995 by President Clinton)
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15-06-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 01:08 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 12:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The government is smaller under obama by a lot. This is a long standing trend but if you want to go by what they say instead of what they do thats on you.

You actually believe that, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...ubmissions


2013 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2012 by President Obama)[131]
2012 United States federal budget - $3.7 trillion (submitted 2011 by President Obama)
2011 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)
2010 United States federal budget - $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)
2009 United States federal budget - $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget - $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)
2007 United States federal budget - $2.8 trillion (submitted 2006 by President Bush)
2006 United States federal budget - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
2005 United States federal budget - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
2004 United States federal budget - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
2003 United States federal budget - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
2002 United States federal budget - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)
2001 United States federal budget - $1.9 trillion (submitted 2000 by President Clinton)
2000 United States federal budget - $1.8 trillion (submitted 1999 by President Clinton)
1999 United States federal budget - $1.7 trillion (submitted 1998 by President Clinton)
1998 United States federal budget - $1.7 trillion (submitted 1997 by President Clinton)
1997 United States federal budget - $1.6 trillion (submitted 1996 by President Clinton)
1996 United States federal budget - $1.6 trillion (submitted 1995 by President Clinton)

False numbers under Bush you need to add the wars to his numbers in which case the government was larger.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
Quote:Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.

This is the problem I find with being a right-libertarian.
I support left wing socialist issues, but their economic issues are fucking retarded. Where as I support right wing economics, but their social policy is fucking retarded...
I'm lucky I live in a country where social issues are almost non-existent. It almost is always about some economic issue. ie: selling off state owned enterprises.

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15-06-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 02:30 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Why Right-wing Libertarian then? In the context of US politics, it is not possible to be Libertarian leaning and be a Democrat. This is because Democrats generally favor government intervention in the economy to a much larger extent than the GOP, and their tolerance for disagreement on this area is very low. Despite the caricature of the GOP being entirely made up of Bible thumping Cretans, there has always been a strain of Libertarian leaning Republicans, Barry Goldwater being one of the more famous ones. So in the US, a Right-wing Libertarian can be used to describe a Republican that also supports non-intervention of the government in social issues and strong protections of civil liberties. There is a Libertarian third party in the US, but they go full out Randian crackpot.

This is the problem I find with being a right-libertarian.
I support left wing socialist issues, but their economic issues are fucking retarded. Where as I support right wing economics, but their social policy is fucking retarded...
I'm lucky I live in a country where social issues are almost non-existent. It almost is always about some economic issue. ie: selling off state owned enterprises.

My issue with being right-libertarian as well. We have more holy rollers in the US. It seems that ever since the civil rights era in the US, the GOP is the last party to come around on social issues. There are some of us though.
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15-06-2013, 02:46 PM
RE: Ask a Right-wing Libertarian
(15-06-2013 02:37 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 02:30 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  This is the problem I find with being a right-libertarian.
I support left wing socialist issues, but their economic issues are fucking retarded. Where as I support right wing economics, but their social policy is fucking retarded...
I'm lucky I live in a country where social issues are almost non-existent. It almost is always about some economic issue. ie: selling off state owned enterprises.

My issue with being right-libertarian as well. We have more holy rollers in the US. It seems that ever since the civil rights era in the US, the GOP is the last party to come around on social issues. There are some of us though.

I honestly can not tell the 2 major parties apart on fiscal issues and size of government. When Republicans are in power they are for deficit spending and growing government. Same with Democrats. However on social issues Republicans want to move us back to the 12th century and to me that is the bigger threat. Whether or not Exxon-Mobile can claim 99% of their profits tax free or 100% has little to no impact on my life. However banning abortion and limiting access to birth control, eliminating health care, and eliminating voting rights for the opposition are things that republicans have done since 2012 when they obtained power. That effects me and is a far larger threat to liberty.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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