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16-04-2012, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 04:52 PM by NoahsFarce.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 03:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 03:17 PM)kenroos Wrote:  true,it is unobservable but you can in fact measure it
How do you measure something that is unobservable?
Through indirect observation. You measure the influences of the unobservable subject. Are you familiar with astronomy at all? Think Dark Energy and Dark Matter.

Also think about the the aftermath of events such as explosions. Let's say no one was around to see it happen. You never observe that explosion happening, yet you can measure the damage it's done. You can measure the effect it had around it. You can use these measurements to declare that an explosion must have happened.

Boom, you just measured stuff that is not observable.
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16-04-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 03:58 PM)kenroos Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 03:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How do you measure something that is unobservable?
as the same way that you can sense something on the dark, or the way that blind people live, or when a mother feels the movement of their child inside her, or when you are thirsty or hungry... and many other ways that one person can sense and MEASURE something that can see but u know that is there.
In the dark, are we talking about 4 of our 5 senses (hearing, smell, touch, taste) or something else? (we could observe via sonar, radar or physically mapping the environment via touch or physical resistance)
Blind people live with 4 senses (hearing, smell, touch, taste)
A mother feels movement of unborn child via touch (we could also observe via ultrasound)
Thirst and hunger, this is tricky, I presume it is via touch, that the body has some touch responders that let it know the stomach is empty. (Possibly ultrasound could observe the contents of the stomach, blood tests could observer the blood sugars)
But these are all based on observable material causes.

How do we measure that which is unobservable?
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16-04-2012, 04:51 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 04:48 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 03:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How do you measure something that is unobservable?
Through indirect observation. You measure the influences of the unobservable subject. Are you familiar with astronomy at all? Think Dark Energy and Dark Matter.

Also think about the the aftermath of events such as explosions. Let's say no one was around to see it happen. You never observe that explosion happening, yet you can measure the damage it's done. You can measure the affect it had around it. You can use these measurements to declare that an explosion must have happened.

Boom, you just measured stuff that is not observable.
No, boom you just found a clever way to measure stuff that is, in fact, observable. If dark energy / matter didn't interact at all there'd be *no way* to know if it existed - there'd be no theory based on it, nada.
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16-04-2012, 04:55 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 05:00 PM by NoahsFarce.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 04:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 04:48 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Through indirect observation. You measure the influences of the unobservable subject. Are you familiar with astronomy at all? Think Dark Energy and Dark Matter.

Also think about the the aftermath of events such as explosions. Let's say no one was around to see it happen. You never observe that explosion happening, yet you can measure the damage it's done. You can measure the affect it had around it. You can use these measurements to declare that an explosion must have happened.

Boom, you just measured stuff that is not observable.
No, boom you just found a clever way to measure stuff that is, in fact, observable. If dark energy / matter didn't interact at all there'd be *no way* to know if it existed - there'd be no theory based on it, nada.
Dark Energy and Dark Matter are currently unobservable. You can play semantic Olympics all you want, but that's a fact. Where do you think they get that name from?

You can only measure the effects they have on the world around us. Just like my explosion example. You aren't OBSERVING the explosion nor can you OBSERVE Dark Matter and Dark Energy.

Observe means to see does it not? So tell me, how are you observing Dark Matter? What you speak of is observing the EFFECTS of Dark Matter. That is not OBSERVING Dark Matter. That's INDIRECT OBSERVATION.

P.S., I'm not yelling, rather emphasizing through caps Smile
By the way, don't confuse my explanation with the one that Kenroos is supplying. Mine has nothing to do with "feeling".

You cannot measure the effects of Jesus neither directly nor indirectly. If a devout Christian grew a missing limb back, we'll have something to start measuring along those lines.
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16-04-2012, 05:55 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 04:55 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Dark Energy and Dark Matter are currently unobservable. You can play semantic Olympics all you want, but that's a fact. Where do you think they get that name from?

You can only measure the effects they have on the world around us. Just like my explosion example. You aren't OBSERVING the explosion nor can you OBSERVE Dark Matter and Dark Energy.

Observe means to see does it not? So tell me, how are you observing Dark Matter? What you speak of is observing the EFFECTS of Dark Matter. That is not OBSERVING Dark Matter. That's INDIRECT OBSERVATION.

P.S., I'm not yelling, rather emphasizing through caps Smile
By the way, don't confuse my explanation with the one that Kenroos is supplying. Mine has nothing to do with "feeling".

You cannot measure the effects of Jesus neither directly nor indirectly. If a devout Christian grew a missing limb back, we'll have something to start measuring along those lines.
Explosions are observable (although I acknowledge you are suggesting what if we missed it. Can we measure the aftermath?) Well, that is what they have done with regard to the Big Bang Theory.
But you can only measure the aftermath because the initial event was observable. An explosion wouldn't have affected its surroundings if the explosion wasn't observable.

Most of our measurements are indirect. Even if I can "see" you, I am not really observing you. I am observing the light rays that are bouncing off you.
With regards to Dark Matter/Energy, they haven't confirmed this to exist. It isn't directly emitting observable energy and they haven't managed to contain a piece of it. They think it has observable attributes though. They think Dark Matter/Energy has a gravitational force therefore they are looking for that gravitational force. Gravitational force isn't like radiation though, It doesn't emit from the source and make its way to the observer in an observable form. They aren't seeing light (energy) bounce off it. But they think it exists because they are "seeing" gravitational effect on the movement of energy/matter away from the Big Bang singularity. They are also seeing gravitational lensing of light sourced from far away galaxies. So they are seeing the effects of observable attributes of "Dark Matter/Energy"

But it has been postulated that god has no observable attributes, not even gravity. So how can we measure the existence or presence of god, how can we measure the "hand" of god.
If god answered prayer, we would see statistical differences in probability of events prayed for as opposed to events not prayed for. If god advantaged its followers during their material life on earth, we would be able to measure the statistical advantages.

If anyone can come up with a way to consistently and objectively measure god or the hand of god then you would have proof.
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17-04-2012, 12:45 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Ah... Hmm...

See, I use different def of observable to you, Noahsfarce Smile If we restrict ourselves only to what we can see then even radio waves are not observable.

And all our knowledge of the universe is built on theory, even the things which are right in front of us, like the computer I'm typing on. Some theories we have more confidence in than others.

Dark matter started out as an idea to explain why galaxies work the way they do - using normal gravitation to explain them just wasn't cutting it. As time went by more and more observations were accumulated which enabled people to define more of what the dark matter's characteristics *must* be. I don't know the full history but I understand that initially they thought dark matter was just ordinary matter that was cold and dark - hence hard to see - but which also had mass so could affect gravity. It was a bit of a hack as far as theories go because anytime you saw an anomaly in your gravity experiments you could say "oh, it's not that the theory's wrong, it's just that there's some cold dark matter somewhere that you can't see that's affecting it" - very wishy washy. But they designed more and better experiments and managed to isolate the properties it must have if it is to explain the phenomena observed.

This is definitely observation in my book - there is something *there* which however indirectly is measurable. We can say "it can't behave like this because otherwise this measurement would be out". In fact, you could pretty much say that "observable" corresponds to "measurable" in my personal dictionary, ergo, measuring something unobservable is de facto impossible.
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17-04-2012, 08:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I realize your point of view, and it is in fact very logical, but in order to measure something we don't need to observe it, as the same example I give of he hunger, you can't see your hunger, but you can feel it, that is difference, you told me about observable things, not about perceptible things. Consider



now, the issue was about measure the times when God aids us on any situation, I can measure it in my perception of his divine influence over me and my environment, and that is something you will not fell if you lacks of faith Sad
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17-04-2012, 09:34 AM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2012 09:45 AM by NoahsFarce.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-04-2012 05:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 04:55 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Dark Energy and Dark Matter are currently unobservable. You can play semantic Olympics all you want, but that's a fact. Where do you think they get that name from?

You can only measure the effects they have on the world around us. Just like my explosion example. You aren't OBSERVING the explosion nor can you OBSERVE Dark Matter and Dark Energy.

Observe means to see does it not? So tell me, how are you observing Dark Matter? What you speak of is observing the EFFECTS of Dark Matter. That is not OBSERVING Dark Matter. That's INDIRECT OBSERVATION.

P.S., I'm not yelling, rather emphasizing through caps Smile
By the way, don't confuse my explanation with the one that Kenroos is supplying. Mine has nothing to do with "feeling".

You cannot measure the effects of Jesus neither directly nor indirectly. If a devout Christian grew a missing limb back, we'll have something to start measuring along those lines.
Explosions are observable (although I acknowledge you are suggesting what if we missed it. Can we measure the aftermath?) Well, that is what they have done with regard to the Big Bang Theory.
But you can only measure the aftermath because the initial event was observable. An explosion wouldn't have affected its surroundings if the explosion wasn't observable.

Most of our measurements are indirect. Even if I can "see" you, I am not really observing you. I am observing the light rays that are bouncing off you.
With regards to Dark Matter/Energy, they haven't confirmed this to exist. It isn't directly emitting observable energy and they haven't managed to contain a piece of it. They think it has observable attributes though. They think Dark Matter/Energy has a gravitational force therefore they are looking for that gravitational force. Gravitational force isn't like radiation though, It doesn't emit from the source and make its way to the observer in an observable form. They aren't seeing light (energy) bounce off it. But they think it exists because they are "seeing" gravitational effect on the movement of energy/matter away from the Big Bang singularity. They are also seeing gravitational lensing of light sourced from far away galaxies. So they are seeing the effects of observable attributes of "Dark Matter/Energy"

But it has been postulated that god has no observable attributes, not even gravity. So how can we measure the existence or presence of god, how can we measure the "hand" of god.
If god answered prayer, we would see statistical differences in probability of events prayed for as opposed to events not prayed for. If god advantaged its followers during their material life on earth, we would be able to measure the statistical advantages.

If anyone can come up with a way to consistently and objectively measure god or the hand of god then you would have proof.
Eh, throwing the god thing out right now because I added to my post that I am talking about an entirely different type of "observation". Mine isn't based on "feeling" as Kenroos suggested.

But I do like cosmological talk so...

Dark Energy technically does not have a gravitational effect. Gravity sucks, Dark Energy pulls. They are actually "confirmed" to exist. They are just placeholder names. Astronomers know something is definitely causing the Universe to expand at an accelerating pace which completely violates the laws of gravity.

Dark matter does have a gravitational effects as it's 25% of all matter in the Universe. Again, just a placeholder name.


(17-04-2012 08:21 AM)kenroos Wrote:  I realize your point of view, and it is in fact very logical, but in order to measure something we don't need to observe it, as the same example I give of he hunger, you can't see your hunger, but you can feel it, that is difference, you told me about observable things, not about perceptible things. Consider



now, the issue was about measure the times when God aids us on any situation, I can measure it in my perception of his divine influence over me and my environment, and that is something you will not fell if you lacks of faith Sad
The funny thing is, I used to have faith. While I never followed the Catholic Church devoutly, I was deeply religious. Even more, I was unselfishly religious. I didn't pray to thank God for my fortunes, rather, I paid my respects through silent prayer. I signed the cross almost every time I got into a car. All of this was all the way up to less than two years ago. I'm 30 now.

I used to look up at the stars and marvel at the Lord's creation. I used to watch Astronomy programs and was amazed at the extent of the Lord's creation. Then I finally came to the realization, that God is irrelevant.

Here's the kicker, I now get a much deeper sense, or in your words, "feeling" of awe when I look up to the cosmos. I'm in absolute amazement realizing that this Universe exists without a God.

And then... I learned that we are made from the very elements that were born inside of stars. These elements came to be a part of me through a star's, or many stars', death(s). I no longer feel as one with God.... I now feel as one with the ENTIRE COSMOS.

This is something YOU cannot possibly "feel" due to your faith. It is for this very reason that I "feel" sad for you.

Want to know the real beauty of my short story? ALL OF THIS IS VERIFIABLE, SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE! Absolutely COSMOLOGICAL PORN in every sense of the phrase.
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17-04-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
actually, I think that your felling of union with the universe can be felt by any other member of this community, yeah I know that we all have minerals on our bodies that only can be created on the supernovas explosions and that is in fact the bases of my own faith, the magnificent of the universe, when I see the stars and when I see the wonders of nature and the wonders of science (yes SCIENCE), my faith grows. because I know for sure, that all those gifts we all have, intelligence, technology and our desire to discover comes all for the will of God.

and please don't "felt" sad for me, I don't want that and I really felt offended of that Dodgy , because even we don't share the same point of view I respect you all on this community, and respect your personal beliefs.
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17-04-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Why can't theists come to a consensus about important issues?

The nontheist community has come to a consensus on moral issues pertaining to such subjects as homosexual and racial equality, as well as scientific theory such as evolution.

It seems that the religious community (and let's just use Christianity for the example), while all worshiping the same god that is the basis for existence, holds completely differing view points on almost all moral, social and scientific issues. Why is it that Christianity is many times at odds with the secular community AND with itself amongst the different denominations, and yet the secular community has been able to come to a consensus within itself over these things?
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