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17-04-2012, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2012 02:30 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 02:07 PM)arbmouser Wrote:  Okay, kingschosen, I think I understand your point of view. However, since not all christian denominations hold what you postulate to be true about scripture, it will be a never ending argument. And this isn't even considering all the other religions that claim divine truth. So, would it not be better to leave religion out of moral and ethical discussions since there cannot be a consensus amongst the religious population of the world, and instead begin the dialogue under a secular humanist view point in order to find answers to problems faced by our societies? I mean to say, could that be acceptable for theists without feeling they have violated their faith?
Yes, it is a fight that will probably never end.

I'm also a believer that morality comes from evolution and not from religion. At it's most primal, morality is based on two primitive traits: empathy and selfishness.

Moreover, morality is relative and is influenced by societal norms, traditional beliefs, and common sense.

Because morality is based on empathy and selfishness, God's instructions on morality is to practice empathy and suppress selfishness; however, since this premise is based on human evolution, all humans share common understanding of basic morality. That is, usually empathy = moral and selfishness = immoral.

(17-04-2012 02:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hey KC question again:

Do the elect consist of Calvinists only or can other denominations fit in too, also can someone from another *religion* be elect, or do they have to be Christian?

What I mean is, could a devout Hindu unknowingly be elect, for example?
The acknowledgment that Christ is the only way for salvation is necessary for salvation (this is provided to the believer by God), so that means means that a person that does not accept that Christ is the sole absolute for salvation cannot be elect.

As for other denominations of Christianity - of course. I believe that Arminians are elect; however, they view salvation differently. They think that they acted on God instead of God acting on them. This doesn't negate the fact that God has acted upon them, though. So yes, they are elected as well.

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17-04-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Right 'cos see I had an idea for experimental confirmation of election... or at least putting some error bars on it...


Except it kinda looks like it won't work - I was hoping to use comparison of election rates... but you guys have gone and made it so hard because the only one who knows for sure who's elected is God (an invisible awesome guy who doesn't like experiments)... argh damn it... sneaky bugger...
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17-04-2012, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2012 03:41 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 09:34 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  But I do like cosmological talk so...

Dark Energy technically does not have a gravitational effect. Gravity sucks, Dark Energy pulls. They are actually "confirmed" to exist. They are just placeholder names. Astronomers know something is definitely causing the Universe to expand at an accelerating pace which completely violates the laws of gravity.
Don't you mean push rather than pull? Gravity pulls matter towards it.
With regards to dark energy, not much is known.
If we focus on our expanding universe, then maybe that is because of all the matter outside our universe than is pulling via gravity. Possibly we have other universes all throughout space, sitting outside our own universe.


(17-04-2012 08:21 AM)kenroos Wrote:  I give of he hunger, you can't see your hunger, but you can feel it, that is difference, you told me about observable things, not about perceptible things.
Hunger is observable, "feel it" is a type of "touch" sense. You don't metaphysically sense hunger, your physical body tells you that it is hungry because your stomach is empty, your blood sugars are low etc, the chemistry of your own body, gives your brain a physical signal that you ought to eat food.
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17-04-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 03:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 09:34 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  But I do like cosmological talk so...

Dark Energy technically does not have a gravitational effect. Gravity sucks, Dark Energy pulls. They are actually "confirmed" to exist. They are just placeholder names. Astronomers know something is definitely causing the Universe to expand at an accelerating pace which completely violates the laws of gravity.
Don't you mean push rather than pull? Gravity pulls matter towards it.
With regards to dark energy, not much is known.
If we focus on our expanding universe, then maybe that is because of all the matter outside our universe than is pulling via gravity. Possibly we have other universes all throughout space, sitting outside our own universe.


(17-04-2012 08:21 AM)kenroos Wrote:  I give of he hunger, you can't see your hunger, but you can feel it, that is difference, you told me about observable things, not about perceptible things.
Hunger is observable, "feel it" is a type of "touch" sense. You don't metaphysically sense hunger, your physical body tells you that it is hungry because your stomach is empty, your blood sugars are low etc, the chemistry of your own body, gives your brain a physical signal that you ought to eat food.

That's why I used the word "suck" for gravity and "pull" for Dark Energy. Gravity sucks you, or as you put it, pulls you towards it. Just a confusion of semantics here. Bottom line being that Dark Energy has the opposite effect.

And yes, not much is known about it which is why it is just a placeholder name. What is known is how it affects the universe.
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17-04-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 04:24 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  That's why I used the word "suck" for gravity and "pull" for Dark Energy. Gravity sucks you, or as you put it, pulls you towards it. Just a confusion of semantics here. Bottom line being that Dark Energy has the opposite effect.
The opposite would be a repulsive force (push) relational to mass.
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17-04-2012, 05:31 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 05:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 04:24 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  That's why I used the word "suck" for gravity and "pull" for Dark Energy. Gravity sucks you, or as you put it, pulls you towards it. Just a confusion of semantics here. Bottom line being that Dark Energy has the opposite effect.
The opposite would be a repulsive force (push) relational to mass.

Again, semantics. I thought I clarified definitions here...

The word I used was "suck" to denote that it's being "pulled" towards the center of gravity. I used the word "pull" to denote that dark energy is "pulling" away from center of gravity.

"Gravity sucks" is a very common phrase by the way..,

I digress though. I used a poor choice of words. I thought I clear that if I say suck vs pull, the idea gets across.

A better choice of words would have been "attract" vs "repel".
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17-04-2012, 06:15 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 05:31 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Again, semantics. I thought I clarified definitions here...

The word I used was "suck" to denote that it's being "pulled" towards the center of gravity. I used the word "pull" to denote that dark energy is "pulling" away from center of gravity.

"Gravity sucks" is a very common phrase by the way..,

I digress though. I used a poor choice of words. I thought I clear that if I say suck vs pull, the idea gets across.

A better choice of words would have been "attract" vs "repel".
Sorry, I was just trying to understand the "pull" term you used, I don't know much about Dark Matter/Energy, wanted to learn something new.
When I pull a door it moves towards me, when I push a door it moves away from me. So I was confused, but I understand now.
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18-04-2012, 10:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-04-2012 06:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-04-2012 05:31 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Again, semantics. I thought I clarified definitions here...

The word I used was "suck" to denote that it's being "pulled" towards the center of gravity. I used the word "pull" to denote that dark energy is "pulling" away from center of gravity.

"Gravity sucks" is a very common phrase by the way..,

I digress though. I used a poor choice of words. I thought I clear that if I say suck vs pull, the idea gets across.

A better choice of words would have been "attract" vs "repel".
Sorry, I was just trying to understand the "pull" term you used, I don't know much about Dark Matter/Energy, wanted to learn something new.
When I pull a door it moves towards me, when I push a door it moves away from me. So I was confused, but I understand now.

Yea, that's why I should have used "attract" and "repel". Something can either be pulled towards you or away from you.
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19-04-2012, 04:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:Hunger is observable, "feel it" is a type of "touch" sense. You don't metaphysically sense hunger, your physical body tells you that it is hungry because your stomach is empty, your blood sugars are low etc, the chemistry of your own body, gives your brain a physical signal that you ought to eat food.
yeah, yeah that's exactly my point, you can not SEE your hunger but you CAN feel it, it just the same kind of sensation that you feel when the God's will is around you and you communicated with him (I'm not talking about praying only), so that clearly demonstrate that you can measure it
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19-04-2012, 05:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-04-2012 04:56 PM)kenroos Wrote:  
Quote:Hunger is observable, "feel it" is a type of "touch" sense. You don't metaphysically sense hunger, your physical body tells you that it is hungry because your stomach is empty, your blood sugars are low etc, the chemistry of your own body, gives your brain a physical signal that you ought to eat food.
yeah, yeah that's exactly my point, you can not SEE your hunger but you CAN feel it, it just the same kind of sensation that you feel when the God's will is around you and you communicated with him (I'm not talking about praying only), so that clearly demonstrate that you can measure it
So we obviously cannot do a blood test on blood sugars to prove god's will is present. What is it within the body that we can test? What physicality of the body is being impacted?
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