Ask a Theist!
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 9 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-06-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Technically speaking, nothing is out of the range of possibilities.

Hug KC is the best theist everz. Big Grin

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like houseofcantor's post
05-06-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Logically speaking, I would say the possibility is almost nil. After what happened to me, I don't think there is ever a way I could be an atheist or even an agnostic again.
What is it that happened to you? You probably already answered this question in this thread, but I don't feel like reading 100+ pages.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 10:20 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Logically speaking, I would say the possibility is almost nil. After what happened to me, I don't think there is ever a way I could be an atheist or even an agnostic again.
What is it that happened to you? You probably already answered this question in this thread, but I don't feel like reading 100+ pages.

I started believing in a supernatural being against my consent. I had a Damascus Road Experience. I was literally changed completely in an instant. Didn't know how to explain it or how it happened until I started reading the Bible.

There's more detail, but this is the gist.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 12:36 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 10:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Technically speaking, nothing is out of the range of possibilities.

Hug KC is the best theist everz. Big Grin

It's just that I'm logical as well Smile

I think it's intellectually dishonest to say that you 100% know anything. As I've stated before, that would require omniscience... something no one can claim.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kingschosen's post
05-06-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 10:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-06-2012 05:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  So... Then... You believe there is no free will?

Very much so.

There is no such thing as free will.
So, if there is absolutely no free will... How would you reconcile the fact that God orchestrated the deaths of millions of people, like in the holocaust, or in homocide? Do you believe that God, or god, is all good?

And if there is no free will, how can people be accountble for the crimes and offenses they committed, and the good things they have done?

Sorry if I am asking to many questions.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 02:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 02:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 10:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Very much so.

There is no such thing as free will.
So, if there is absolutely no free will... How would you reconcile the fact that God orchestrated the deaths of millions of people, like in the holocaust, or in homocide? Do you believe that God, or god, is all good?

And if there is no free will, how can people be accountble for the crimes and offenses they committed, and the good things they have done?

Sorry if I am asking to many questions.

God is not omni-benevolent (again, I'm still confused as to where this misconception came from). God created everything (as He is omnipotent), and this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7) and orchestrates death. This is seen en masse throughout the Old Testament.

A reconciliation is that these events and deaths are according to His plan to serve His purpose. Since God is morally autonomous, He cannot be held accountable to human morality and standards. If there is an acceptance that God is perfect in every way, then these abhorrent acts (according to human morality) are in accordance to His perfect plan.

Now, as to "why?" I don't know. I don't know the will of God and why He planned for these things to happen.

As for being held accountable:

This, again, boils down to the elect and non-elect. The elect's sins are totally forgiven while the non-elect's aren't. It's this that damns them and the sins are a by-product of humanity. So, in a sense, people are and aren't held accountable for their sins. Sinning is predetermined by God and created by God. This is so Christ would have a purpose. It serves as a damning process for the non-elect and a learning and understanding process for the elect.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
God's a troll IOW.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 03:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 02:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 02:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  So, if there is absolutely no free will... How would you reconcile the fact that God orchestrated the deaths of millions of people, like in the holocaust, or in homocide? Do you believe that God, or god, is all good?

And if there is no free will, how can people be accountble for the crimes and offenses they committed, and the good things they have done?

Sorry if I am asking to many questions.

God is not omni-benevolent (again, I'm still confused as to where this misconception came from). God created everything (as He is omnipotent), and this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7) and orchestrates death. This is seen en masse throughout the Old Testament.

A reconciliation is that these events and deaths are according to His plan to serve His purpose. Since God is morally autonomous, He cannot be held accountable to human morality and standards. If there is an acceptance that God is perfect in every way, then these abhorrent acts (according to human morality) are in accordance to His perfect plan.

Now, as to "why?" I don't know. I don't know the will of God and why He planned for these things to happen.

As for being held accountable:

This, again, boils down to the elect and non-elect. The elect's sins are totally forgiven while the non-elect's aren't. It's this that damns them and the sins are a by-product of humanity. So, in a sense, people are and aren't held accountable for their sins. Sinning is predetermined by God and created by God. This is so Christ would have a purpose. It serves as a damning process for the non-elect and a learning and understanding process for the elect.
All this is.... Is a plan for God. To kill innocent babies, after giving them life in the first place... That seems kind of redundant.

God is a troll, and a grave one at that.

PARENTS:WE ARE HAVING A BABY!!!!
God gave them that baby
The baby dies at childbirth.... That is beyond redudant to do, unless it serves to tramituize, and sadden the parents. It is my personal belief that if God was real, and he gave us the judgement to pick between good and evil, then he techincally gave us the right to judge "Him."

What type of evidence, this time it can be in the bible, that tells you he is morally autonomous?

Why would God make non believers in the first place if all he is going to do to them is punish them, that seems evil beyond any doubt.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Atothetheist's post
05-06-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 03:04 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  All this is.... Is a plan for God. To kill innocent babies, after giving them life in the first place... That seems kind of redundant.

God is a troll, and a grave one at that.

PARENTS:WE ARE HAVING A BABY!!!!
God gave them that baby
The baby dies at childbirth.... That is beyond redudant to do, unless it serves to tramituize, and sadden the parents. It is my personal belief that if God was real, and he gave us the judgement to pick between good and evil, then he techincally gave us the right to judge "Him."

This happens because of sin. We have sin because it was necessary for Christ's purpose.

Quote:What type of evidence, this time it can be in the bible, that tells you he is morally autonomous?

Romans 9:14-21
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Quote:Why would God make non believers in the first place if all he is going to do to them is punish them, that seems evil beyond any doubt.

His plan and purpose for Christ was to have some humans elected for salvation. In order to have this, there has to be the damned.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-06-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-06-2012 03:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 03:04 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  All this is.... Is a plan for God. To kill innocent babies, after giving them life in the first place... That seems kind of redundant.

God is a troll, and a grave one at that.

PARENTS:WE ARE HAVING A BABY!!!!
God gave them that baby
The baby dies at childbirth.... That is beyond redudant to do, unless it serves to tramituize, and sadden the parents. It is my personal belief that if God was real, and he gave us the judgement to pick between good and evil, then he techincally gave us the right to judge "Him."

This happens because of sin. We have sin because it was necessary for Christ's purpose.

Quote:What type of evidence, this time it can be in the bible, that tells you he is morally autonomous?

Romans 9:14-21
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Quote:Why would God make non believers in the first place if all he is going to do to them is punish them, that seems evil beyond any doubt.

His plan and purpose for Christ was to have some humans elected for salvation. In order to have this, there has to be the damned.
Regardless of how differing we are in our opinions, and beliefs, thank you for your responses. I believe I understand your worldview enough to want to learn more, even though I can't bring myself to believe the same, unless God planned it for me already.

Thanks for the insights, I really enjoyed them.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: