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12-06-2012, 03:23 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-06-2012 03:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-06-2012 02:19 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  There is nothing in the text or historical tradition that suggests that Jesus was figurative.

So, yes, I think it happened.
Seems like my assumption was correct, so here's the next question: Do you also believe that all the other miracles and supernatural events described in the Bible actually happened? Such as the ten plagues, Noah's Flood, Jonah being swallowed by a fish and surviving three days, etc.

Genesis is a bit different. I'm still undecided about some of the events. When you study Ancient Near Eastern culture you come to realize that there was no separation between their history and myth. It was their history.

So, what I'm starting to learn towards is that most of Genesis is hyperbolic and figurative; however, inspired. These stories were communications, lessons, and teachings for the people in a way that they understood.

I'm won't commit to this idea just yet, though. I have to do more research.

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13-06-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-06-2012 03:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Genesis is a bit different. I'm still undecided about some of the events. When you study Ancient Near Eastern culture you come to realize that there was no separation between their history and myth. It was their history.

So, what I'm starting to learn towards is that most of Genesis is hyperbolic and figurative; however, inspired. These stories were communications, lessons, and teachings for the people in a way that they understood.

I'm won't commit to this idea just yet, though. I have to do more research.
Let me know when you've made your decision.

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13-06-2012, 08:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 07:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-06-2012 03:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Genesis is a bit different. I'm still undecided about some of the events. When you study Ancient Near Eastern culture you come to realize that there was no separation between their history and myth. It was their history.

So, what I'm starting to learn towards is that most of Genesis is hyperbolic and figurative; however, inspired. These stories were communications, lessons, and teachings for the people in a way that they understood.

I'm won't commit to this idea just yet, though. I have to do more research.
Let me know when you've made your decision.

I should probably clarify what I was saying... looking back I was kind of ambiguous.

Let's take Noah:

Was there a Noah?
Probably

Was there a flood?
Probably

Was it a world-wide flood?
Not likely

Was it a local flood?
Plausible

Did the events of Noah actually occur (animals, ark, etc)
Not likely

You see, what I'm learning from my research is that these peoples' history ARE these myths. Their history is crafted from "Based on true events".

The stories are embellished and hyperbolic on purpose. They would take events and people from their culture and craft a grand tale around them.

Are Christians suppose to take them at their literal face value?
Probably not

God inspired these stories to get His message across effectively and clearly to His people. This was His chosen medium.

An obvious example of hyperbole in these accounts are ages. Adam for instance. Was he really 950 when he died?
Almost assuredly not

Ancient Near East cultures attached years or age to people to show their significance or importance. This was understood back then. So, a person that was 950 was a pretty important dude. I guess, it's kind of like a primitive passive pissing contest.

"Your original guy was 800 when he died? Ha. Well ours was 950. He was way more important than yours."

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13-06-2012, 08:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 08:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  "Your original guy was 800 when he died? Ha. Well ours was 950. He was way more important than yours."

Gwynnies foreverz ftw. Tongue

Here's one for ya: how do you reconcile the discrepancy between day 6 and 2:4? In one, man was "image of god," in the other, dust and breath. Mathematically speaking, dust + breath = god. You worshiping some dusty ol' breath? (trollface, but the previous question is legit)

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13-06-2012, 08:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 08:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 08:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  "Your original guy was 800 when he died? Ha. Well ours was 950. He was way more important than yours."

Gwynnies foreverz ftw. Tongue

Here's one for ya: how do you reconcile the discrepancy between day 6 and 2:4? In one, man was "image of god," in the other, dust and breath. Mathematically speaking, dust + breath = god. You worshiping some dusty ol' breath? (trollface, but the previous question is legit)

I don't take the Genesis Creation Account literally.

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13-06-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 08:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 08:46 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Gwynnies foreverz ftw. Tongue

Here's one for ya: how do you reconcile the discrepancy between day 6 and 2:4? In one, man was "image of god," in the other, dust and breath. Mathematically speaking, dust + breath = god. You worshiping some dusty ol' breath? (trollface, but the previous question is legit)

I don't take the Genesis Creation Account literally.
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I'm thinking I heard you say (seen you write) things to the effect of being descended from Adam and image of god and stuff.

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13-06-2012, 09:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 09:17 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 08:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't take the Genesis Creation Account literally.
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I'm thinking I heard you say (seen you write) things to the effect of being descended from Adam and image of god and stuff.

Right.

There was a literal Adam - just the stuff written about him in Genesis 1-3 was a story.

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13-06-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 08:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You see, what I'm learning from my research is that these peoples' history ARE these myths. Their history is crafted from "Based on true events".

The stories are embellished and hyperbolic on purpose. They would take events and people from their culture and craft a grand tale around them.
Parts of the story of Jesus sound embellished and hyperbolic as well. Granted, it sounds plausible that a prophet named Jesus actually lived at the time and spread the word of God among the people, since that wasn't uncommon. I would even say that it's possible that he was crucified, but to say that he was resurrected three days after being buried is clearly contradicting the scientific facts. A person can be "brought back to life" a few minutes after his heart has stopped beating by using cardiac massage or a defibrillator. However, this is not possible when the person has been dead for three days. The same applies to his miraculous healing, turning water into wine, etc. Accepting that he was resurrected means that you can accept any supernatural event in the Bible by saying that God did it.

That's why I'm surprised that the stories in the OT are supposed to be hyperbolic, when the story of Jesus has the same characteristics. Why couldn't they have happened as it is written? We're talking about an omnipotent being after all.

(13-06-2012 08:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God inspired these stories to get His message across effectively and clearly to His people. This was His chosen medium.
Before I start putting words in your mouth, do you think that this applies to all supernatural stories in the OT?

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13-06-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Ah the old Corner the Theist strategy Big Grin Hee hee...
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13-06-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 10:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Parts of the story of Jesus sound embellished and hyperbolic as well. Granted, it sounds plausible that a prophet named Jesus actually lived at the time and spread the word of God among the people, since that wasn't uncommon. I would even say that it's possible that he was crucified, but to say that he was resurrected three days after being buried is clearly contradicting the scientific facts. A person can be "brought back to life" a few minutes after his heart has stopped beating by using cardiac massage or a defibrillator. However, this is not possible when the person has been dead for three days. The same applies to his miraculous healing, turning water into wine, etc. Accepting that he was resurrected means that you can accept any supernatural event in the Bible by saying that God did it.

Sounding hyperbolic and being hyperbolic are different. Genesis was written in an intentional way. The culture and other documents of the time support this.

The story of Jesus wasn't written to be hyperbolic. It was written to be taken literally (this is what my studies have shown).

The non-scientific features become moot to a theistic argument because miracles are divine and without limitations.

Quote:That's why I'm surprised that the stories in the OT are supposed to be hyperbolic, when the story of Jesus has the same characteristics. Why couldn't they have happened as it is written? We're talking about an omnipotent being after all.

During Genesis, written language was at its infant stage. Communications mainly happened through stories, and through the culture development of these societies, we see these fantastic stories. God used this medium as His communication tool.

As you know, at the time of Jesus, written language and communications were well developed, straightforward, and less ambiguous than their ancestors.

Communications through alphabets was second nature; therefore, communications became more precise and less hyperbolic.

Again, God used the communication styles of the time to share His message.

Quote:Before I start putting words in your mouth, do you think that this applies to all supernatural stories in the OT?

Not entirely sure... yet. It just really depends on the time frame that it was written. It's obvious in Genesis. Honestly, that's about as far as I've gotten in my studies. My brother and I have delved into Genesis 1-3 for like 2 years now.

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