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13-06-2012, 02:33 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 11:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ah the old Corner the Theist strategy Big Grin Hee hee...

I learned how to wall-flip out of danger.

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13-06-2012, 09:12 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Considering this is a long thread I do not know if my post will get noticed but here goes:

KC, I spent most of my life growing up in the church of christ. It was often said that the closest denomination to the CoC, were the Baptists. That being said I was curious, since you are a theist and this is a theist thread I figure we stick to the Bible on this one. While being Christian I always had doubt about the true existence of God and never fully believed it. However, and at I say this at risk of sounding like an arrogant jerk, I used to pride myself on my ability to disprove many of the denominations of Christianity. I would invite Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, gospel solicitors of all kinds into my home and even into my parents home with my father and we would study. But as soon as they came to the conclusion that we could not be easily bought, despite the fact that we were very polite and respectful of their views, they would leave and never return. I had doubts about the CoC as well, but since my parents went there as did I, I kept my mouth shut. I would do this with a simple to understand yet somewhat lengthy (about 45 minutes to an hour just to go through the basic material) lesson on "Biblical Authority." I got the original idea from a preacher when I was 17. How do we know what to follow in the Bible. So many things are disregarded as metaphor, stories, examples, etc. I warn you my motivation in asking this question and future ones on yours or anyone's religious stance, is simply so that I may understand thought patterns and how Christians today defend their views. And a second warning, these and other questions are only meaningful to you if you are a Christian who believes that the Bible is in and of itself 100% accurate and to be the true inspired word of the Godhead.

My question to you is: How do you decide what to follow in the Bible? My lesson unfortunate to say, is back on my father's computer and a hard copy in my Bible back at my parents house 500 miles away. If you would like to see the whole thing, I can try and retrieve it at the risk of setting my parents up with momentary false hope Smile. However just in case I am not clearly getting my question across, I'll give you the 3 demonstrated categories that I believe are for certain if you are going to be a Christian, you must follow unconditionally.
1. A direct divine command. (From God, Jesus, and/or the holy spirit).
2. An apostolic command or example. (Either an apostle or one whom an apostle laid hands on of the holy spirit i.e. philip and stephen).
3. Necessary Inference. (To put it bluntly, The biblical version of context clues. For instance, the Bible says fornication is a sin, so should watching a movie with fornication be counted as a sin?)

Your thoughts on these 3 points and also if possible an answer to how you determine biblical authority. Even if it solely based on "your personal faith," I look forward to your answer.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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13-06-2012, 10:09 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
AmishLatinJew, I read your response a couple of times, and I couldn't glean exactly what it was you wanted from me. I'm really sorry. It's late and my brain is kind of mush from today.

Would you please rephrase your questions?

(I know I'll look back on this tomorrow and be embarrassed that I couldn't understand what you were asking.)

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13-06-2012, 10:30 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I know the feeling, I just typed a long post in another forum here, and i swear i was putting words in sentences that didn't make sense. I guess that happens to all internet trolls eh? But I'll rephrase and put it bluntly, though I would recommend once reading this, to go back above and read my earlier post as well.

"Using the Bible, how do you determine what is to be followed as doctrine?"

In the above post, I listed a part of a lesson I wrote a long while ago and named how I used to use the Bible to prove it's "authority" and I was wondering if there was any particular method in how you did that or if it was just on faith.

I firmly believe that there are so many different denominations of Christianity because people can not agree on how we know the Bible is telling us to do something. Hence why people who are not familiar with the Bible will often argue against it blindly by saying "The Bible never says thou shalt not (insert sin here)."

Hope this irons it out a little bit more. I'm off for the night. Peace.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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14-06-2012, 06:36 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 02:32 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sounding hyperbolic and being hyperbolic are different. Genesis was written in an intentional way. The culture and other documents of the time support this.

The story of Jesus wasn't written to be hyperbolic. It was written to be taken literally (this is what my studies have shown).
I can't tell if what you're saying is true, since I haven't studied the Bible at all. Just to make sure, can you provide any external sources which confirm this theory?

Quote:The non-scientific features become moot to a theistic argument because miracles are divine and without limitations.
That's correct. I guess I shouldn't even have brought up that the story of Jesus is impossible from a logic point of view.

Quote:During Genesis, written language was at its infant stage. Communications mainly happened through stories, and through the culture development of these societies, we see these fantastic stories. God used this medium as His communication tool.

As you know, at the time of Jesus, written language and communications were well developed, straightforward, and less ambiguous than their ancestors.

Communications through alphabets was second nature; therefore, communications became more precise and less hyperbolic.

Again, God used the communication styles of the time to share His message.
What you say sounds plausible, but what's the point of taking supernatural stories in the Bible as theological proof for the existence of God if they weren't even supernatural to begin with? If these stories were "merely" a communication tool, then what in the OT shows us that God is omnipotent?

Quote:Not entirely sure... yet. It just really depends on the time frame that it was written. It's obvious in Genesis. Honestly, that's about as far as I've gotten in my studies. My brother and I have delved into Genesis1-3 for like 2 years now.
Now you've made me curious. Do you mind if I give you an example of a story and you tell me the message that God wanted to share with his believers?

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14-06-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-06-2012 09:12 PM)AmishLatinJew Wrote:  My question to you is: How do you decide what to follow in the Bible?
1. A direct divine command. (From God, Jesus, and/or the holy spirit).
2. An apostolic command or example. (Either an apostle or one whom an apostle laid hands on of the holy spirit i.e. philip and stephen).
3. Necessary Inference. (To put it bluntly, The biblical version of context clues. For instance, the Bible says fornication is a sin, so should watching a movie with fornication be counted as a sin?)

Your thoughts on these 3 points and also if possible an answer to how you determine biblical authority. Even if it solely based on "your personal faith," I look forward to your answer.

(13-06-2012 10:30 PM)AmishLatinJew Wrote:  "Using the Bible, how do you determine what is to be followed as doctrine?"

In the above post, I listed a part of a lesson I wrote a long while ago and named how I used to use the Bible to prove it's "authority" and I was wondering if there was any particular method in how you did that or if it was just on faith.

Ahh, now the first post makes more sense.

First, I read the Bible at face value. Then I look closely at the oldest manuscripts and the original languages. Then I delve into the history of the culture and the audience. Then I look at the history of author and what the message was that was supposed to be conveyed.

I believe that there are other divinely inspired works not in the Bible... well, partially, inspired.

The Book of Enoch was consider scripture for centuries until the Council of Nicea decided that the book had been corrupted. I agree with it being inspired and corrupted. If you read it, you can tell a stark contrast in the way it reads. The same goes for the Assumption of Moses.

All the Bible is to be followed as divine doctrine; however, it takes interpretation and deciphering of years of ancient culture to glean the true meanings of some of the texts.

I'm not saying that anything I believe about the Bible is authoritative or law; I'm just saying that this is what I've learned and been led to believe through my studies.

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14-06-2012, 08:15 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(14-06-2012 06:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I can't tell if what you're saying is true, since I haven't studied the Bible at all. Just to make sure, can you provide any external sources which confirm this theory?

It's not so much of a single source, per se... it's how the Greeks and Romans communicated.

Their stories of their gods were fantastic; however, they were understood as stories.

The NT is written as part narrative and part historical data entry. The writings do not suggest that the story of Jesus was fantasy because it is documented like someone writing events of their life.

Think of it like reading someone's personal journal as opposed to reading a Stephen King book.

Quote:That's correct. I guess I shouldn't even have brought up that the story of Jesus is impossible from a logic point of view.

It's a fair question. Logically, it doesn't make sense. This is where the faith based belief that is Christianity takes over.

Quote:What you say sounds plausible, but what's the point of taking supernatural stories in the Bible as theological proof for the existence of God if they weren't even supernatural to begin with? If these stories were "merely" a communication tool, then what in the OT shows us that God is omnipotent?

God is referred to as "Almighty". In the Hebrew, the word for this means omnipotent.

Quote:Now you've made me curious. Do you mind if I give you an example of a story and you tell me the message that God wanted to share with his believers?

Go for it.

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14-06-2012, 08:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(14-06-2012 08:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's not so much of a single source, per se... it's how the Greeks and Romans communicated.

Their stories of their gods were fantastic; however, they were understood as stories.

The NT is written as part narrative and part historical data entry. The writings do not suggest that the story of Jesus was fantasy because it is documented like someone writing events of their life.

Think of it like reading someone's personal journal as opposed to reading a Stephen King book.
But the stories about Jesus were written down decades after he died, weren't they? As far as I know, the evangelists never met Jesus in their own lifetime. You can't tell me that the eye-witness reports of common people are a reliable source for an accurate depiction of an event that happened over 40 years ago (not entirely sure on this number). Especially if we're talking about supernatural events. Even people today claim that they've been abducted by extraterrestrials or that they've seen big foot or Nessie. From a logic point of view, the story of resurrection is just as unlikely as the stories mentioned before.

Quote:It's a fair question. Logically, it doesn't make sense. This is where the faith based belief that is Christianity takes over.
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that someone as intelligent as you can have faith in something like this. I'd tolerate religion a lot more if the majority of believers knew as much about their religion as you do. Then we wouldn't have any fundamentalists, people believing in the YEC and the likes of them. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

Quote:God is referred to as "Almighty". In the Hebrew, the word for this means omnipotent.
Many apologies, I think the way I posed the question was misleading. Let me rephrase it: Which events in the OT point us towards the conclusion that God is almighty? An example would be the creation of the universe, but since it's not to be taken literally, it can't be taken as proof for God's omnipotence.

Quote:Go for it.
Alright. Let's start with the story of Adam and Eve (the expulsion from Paradise). Which message was God trying to share with us in this one?

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14-06-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(14-06-2012 08:48 AM)Vosur Wrote:  But the stories about Jesus were written down decades after he died, weren't they? As far as I know, the evangelists never met Jesus in their own lifetime. You can't tell me that the eye-witness reports of common people are a reliable source for an accurate depiction of an event that happened over 40 years ago (not entirely sure on this number). Especially if we're talking about supernatural events. Even people today claim that they've been abducted by extraterrestrials or that they've seen big foot or Nessie. From a logic point of view, the story of resurrection is just as unlikely as the stories mentioned before.

You are right.

But, the accuracy of the account doesn't come into question in accordance to what we're discussing. With it not being written until later, empirical data is suspect; not actual all encompassing events.

Quote:I still can't wrap my head around the fact that someone as intelligent as you can have faith in something like this. I'd tolerate religion a lot more if the majority of believers knew as much about their religion as you do. Then we wouldn't have any fundamentalists, people believing in the YEC and the likes of them. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

Thanks... I think.

My life was completely changed when God regenerated me. I simply can't deny it.

Quote:Many apologies, I think the way I posed the question was misleading. Let me rephrase it: Which events in the OT point us towards the conclusion that God is almighty? An example would be the creation of the universe, but since it's not to be taken literally, it can't be taken as proof for God's omnipotence.

Any supernatural event (plenty in the OT) that exhibits God sovereignty and authority over mankind gives precedence to His omnipotence.

The very fact that God can control a human (Pharaoh), shows His power.

Quote:Alright. Let's start with the story of Adam and Eve (the expulsion from Paradise). Which message was God trying to share with us in this one?

God was showing the consequences of sin. Since sin is a part of God's created plan, it was also there to prepare humanity for their relationship with God.

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14-06-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:You are right.

But, the accuracy of the account doesn't come into question in accordance to what we're discussing. With it not being written until later, empirical data is suspect; not actual all encompassing events.
I'm sorry, but I'm having troubles understanding what you were trying to say. Can you rephrase this in a more simple way? Please bare with me, I'm not a native English speaker.

Quote:Anysupernatural event (plenty in the OT) that exhibits God sovereignty andauthority over mankind gives precedence to His omnipotence.

The very fact that God can control a human (Pharaoh), shows His power.
Wait a second, didn't you just say that the supernatural events in the OT are merely hyperbolic and figurative?

Quote:God was showing the consequences of sin. Since sin is a part of God's created plan, it was also there to prepare humanity for their relationship with God.
Good answer.

✄ --------------------------------------

I have two more questions, which are not related to the above.

1.) According to modern theologists/your interpretation of the Bible, where do non-believers go after dead, if not to hell?
2.) Where does the original sin come from, if the story of Adam and Eve never actually happened?

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