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02-07-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-07-2012 04:08 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 03:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Nope.

Edit: Wait, are you talking about scripture references?
Whatever evidence you say you have.
Scripture is not evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2012, 07:31 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-07-2012 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 04:08 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Whatever evidence you say you have.
Scripture is not evidence.

This is where my confusion is...

It's evidence to me but not to atheists.

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03-07-2012, 07:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 07:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Scripture is not evidence.

This is where my confusion is...

It's evidence to me but not to atheists.
You can give me scripture as evidence, I just won't think too highly because in order for the evidence to be compelling from the Bible, you have to already be convinced that God is real, and that it is the Christian God.

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03-07-2012, 08:04 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 07:49 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-07-2012 07:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is where my confusion is...

It's evidence to me but not to atheists.
You can give me scripture as evidence, I just won't think too highly because in order for the evidence to be compelling from the Bible, you have to already be convinced that God is real, and that it is the Christian God.

The only thing I can give you is scripture.

The question is theological; therefore, requires a theological answer.

I know you said you'll accept scripture as evidence, but the question isn't fair if scripture isn't regarded as evidence. You can't ask a theological question and refuse a theological answer.

Anyway, scripture is absolutely chocked full of election. Here are a few:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Romans 9:11-24
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “ The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “ Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “ Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

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03-07-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 07:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Scripture is not evidence.

This is where my confusion is...

It's evidence to me but not to atheists.
Do you mean "I (kc) don't understand why you (Joe Atheist) don't take this as evidence"?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-07-2012, 09:25 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 09:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-07-2012 07:31 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is where my confusion is...

It's evidence to me but not to atheists.
Do you mean "I (kc) don't understand why you (Joe Atheist) don't take this as evidence"?

No. My confusion was why he was asking for scripture evidence if he didn't count it as evidence.

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03-07-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-07-2012 09:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you mean "I (kc) don't understand why you (Joe Atheist) don't take this as evidence"?

No. My confusion was why he was asking for scripture evidence if he didn't count it as evidence.
The reason why I don't automatically dismiss the bible is because scriptual evidence can't prove the existance of God, but it can prove that your view of christianity is correct based on the bible.

I wasn't asking on evidence FOR God, I was asking for evidence that his view of God would be the correct one, scripture is a valid point of evidence in that view.

I hope that I am communicating what I am trying to say as clearly as possible.

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03-07-2012, 10:00 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I've got one as well. Why is it that you base your entire belief on one experience, even though you know that the brain cannot always be trusted? You may have had hallucinations or something similar. Have you ever considered this possibility?

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03-07-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 09:53 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(03-07-2012 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No. My confusion was why he was asking for scripture evidence if he didn't count it as evidence.
The reason why I don't automatically dismiss the bible is because scriptual evidence can't prove the existance of God, but it can prove that your view of christianity is correct based on the bible.

I wasn't asking on evidence FOR God, I was asking for evidence that his view of God would be the correct one, scripture is a valid point of evidence in that view.

I hope that I am communicating what I am trying to say as clearly as possible.

Oh no, you are... just not many atheists speak in that regard.

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03-07-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(03-07-2012 10:00 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I've got one as well. Why is it that you base your entire belief on one experience, even though you know that the brain cannot always be trusted? You may have had hallucinations or something similar. Have you ever considered this possibility?

I've tried to logically "out think" this... but, I just can't shake the belief.

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