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11-12-2011, 07:50 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Mr. Woof, please refer to ground rule #Lastly.

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11-12-2011, 08:28 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 07:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  3) Lusting is a sin. Masturbation is a result of lust. So, no... masturbation isn't a sin. It's a by product of a sin.

So, coveting your neighbor's ox or ass is a sin, but stealing it as a result is not?

And, lusting after your neighbor's wife is a sin, but screwing her is not?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-12-2011, 09:04 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 06:45 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Who would win in a fight, Jesus or a T-Rex ridden by chuck Norris?
Tongue

Nominated as Best question of 2011.

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11-12-2011, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 09:35 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 10:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  BUT, to answer your original question, the story is still about obedience. Jesus asked this of the rich young ruler, not because it was necessary for his salvation, but because Jesus wanted to show him that he did not have the obedience to follow. The request to sell all of his possessions was symbolic, and Jesus knew that the rich young ruler could not give it up.

See, Jesus knew that the rich young ruler could never do anything "good" to get into heaven. Jesus knew this man was damned, so Jesus made it evident to him that he could not have salvation.

There are some more things to consider... why would a man so concerned with his eternal soul not be willing to give up temporary wealth? This doesn't even seem logical since the RYR was so adamant about receiving eternal life. This became a symbol for the disciples: something so simple, but yet he couldn't do it. He couldn't receive eternal life based on his own merit, and Jesus was unwilling to grant it to him. Why? Because he wasn't elect. Jesus was showing not only the RYR but also the disciples how impossible it was for someone who isn't chosen to try and receive salvation.

I'm inclined to let go of the other questions, but this one I want to delve into more deeply.

You say that this is "not because it was necessary for his salvation", and I understand why you're making this claim - getting into heaven through works rather than faith contradicts other scripture. But Jesus doesn't clarify this, which is why an apologist has to do it. To demonstrate this man's lack of obedience, I agree with you that it was necessary that he already know how the RYR felt... but that doesn't appear to be the case. After Jesus lists the commands he should be following, the RYR says he already follows them. Why prescribe a medicine that the man is already taking? And then after Jesus tells him to sell his possessions, the man goes away sad. This implies that the RYR will not want to do it, but it isn't good evidence that he didn't. After all, getting into heaven was obviously important to him.

Jesus then compounds this lesson - that selling one's possessions is literally important for getting into heaven - by telling the crowd that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into heaven. This is the metaphor here, and it describes the extent of difficulty in being both saved and rich. But why? Knowing what we know now about salvation - that you only need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - there's no logical reason why this should be any more difficult while wealthy. The rich can pray to God just as easily as the poor can, and they can also believe any proposition as easily as the poor. And we have examples such as Abraham, Esther, and Solomon where riches didn't keep these people out of heaven.

To anticipate a rebuttal, I know this is followed with "but all things are possible with God" (same story). Which is another way of saying "but don't take my remarks to heart because the exception can be literally any exception". Is there a salvation that isn't done "with God"? In whose case would this lesson we learn from the RYR even apply? It's like when an apologist replies that God is returning to Earth "soon" because to God a day is like a thousand years - in other words, if a timescale prediction doesn't pan out we can make timescale irrelevant by looking at it from God's perspective.

One last thing - is the lesson here that we should give up earthly wealth? Is it really 'so simple'? If I chose to become a Christian, and someone told me that I couldn't enter heaven with my right eye intact, would I gouge it out just to satisfy this claim? I don't see any examples of Christians taking this to heart, even though it's 'so simple' when compared with going to hell. But I think that Christians don't see it as necessary, and would be repulsed by the idea of doing such a thing just because they'd been told to. And I think the RYR felt the same way... "Why is he telling me to give up my stuff just so I can go to heaven? He didn't tell anyone else that they had to."

So my question here, with all of this information in mind, is why did Jesus give instructions to this rich young ruler about getting into heaven that he didn't give to anyone else?

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11-12-2011, 11:07 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 11:10 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 10:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, I don't want to get into a semantics debate, but yeah, not all lust is a sin. Lusting after my wife isn't a sin. God is concerned with matters of the heart not legalism.

We got no probs, KC. I just drop in with my two cents once in a while. Seems I got a coupla doobs bet on ya. Wink
(11-12-2011 05:03 AM)Monk Wrote:  12 pages later. Still no evidence for Yahweh.

YHWH in the house! Gotta back up the youngster with pre-existing factoids. Wink

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11-12-2011, 11:22 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 11:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  We got no probs, KC. I just drop in with my two cents once in a while. Seems I got a coupla doobs bet on ya. Wink

Kind of a win-win bet either way.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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11-12-2011, 11:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 11:22 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(11-12-2011 11:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  We got no probs, KC. I just drop in with my two cents once in a while. Seems I got a coupla doobs bet on ya. Wink

Kind of a win-win bet either way.

That's the only kind of "gambling" I do. Wink

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11-12-2011, 04:03 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 09:04 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Nominated as Best question of 2011.

I hope i win, Im off to write my acceptance speech, of course remembering to thank my family, friends, JC, the FSM and the loch ness monster.

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11-12-2011, 04:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 04:03 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(11-12-2011 09:04 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Nominated as Best question of 2011.

I hope i win, Im off to write my acceptance speech, of course remembering to thank my family, friends, JC, the FSM and the loch ness monster.

Cannae forget Nessie. We got one o' them. Champie. Wink

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11-12-2011, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2011 05:10 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2011 04:19 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Cannae forget Nessie. We got one o' them. Champie. Wink

I'd also like to thank Bigfoot and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morag_%28loch_monster%29 morag Nessies less well know cousin (There are alot of cryptids in my country)

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