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30-07-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-07-2012 12:16 PM)KVron Wrote:  
(25-07-2012 08:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What I said in this thread.

KC, how do you keep track of everything you say in this forum? You have more than 3,700
posts and you remember what you said in each one??

Good question.

I really have no idea. I just do.

God, I guess Smile

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30-07-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-07-2012 12:20 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  A question to a theist... will there ever by an atheist gathering point that does not have theists intruding on their thoughts? There are plenty of theist gathering points and I'm sure that they don't all have resident atheists. Some, but not all.

Very curious.

Define "intruding".

From what I can deduct this is about me. If so, very original thought. Never heard it before...

Anyway, I don't intrude here. I don't preach. I'm just a part of this place.

Also, calling for division among differing opinions isn't good in any sense.

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30-07-2012, 07:59 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-07-2012 02:59 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I got a question: Do you think people can be moral or immoral?

I haven't seen anybody ask you this, and was thinking it might prove something in my head if I got an honest answer.

Well, morals are based on empathy and selfishness and defined by society, so yes... but they are that way because God preordained them that way.

Quote:Also, another one: Does God control everything, and is God nonjudgeable based on his actions?

Yes and yes.

Quote:Sorry, but I just thought of one other: you mentioned this about guns....

If a man killed with a gun, is it the guns fault, or the persons?

The person. And, I see where you're going with this. Ultimately, yes, it is God's fault; however, society doesn't always believe in a God, so blaming Him for it won't suffice as a punishment. For society to function efficiently with elect and non-elect, people have to believe in freewill - even though it doesn't exist. This, again, is preordained and controlled by God.

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30-07-2012, 07:59 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-07-2012 04:51 PM)Magoo Wrote:  Does this specialness to be elect pass on through children? So would your kid be elect?

It's not inherited. It's only by God's choice.

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30-07-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 12:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  2 Kings 18:27
27 But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

Malachi 2:3
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

What's the message behind these verses?

God's damning, and an example of non-election.

God can be harsh.

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30-07-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 08:03 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God can be harsh.

LaughatLaughatLaughatLaughat

KC the master of overstatement. You mean that little cute bunny rabbit God?
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30-07-2012, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2012 12:33 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 07:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 02:59 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I got a question: Do you think people can be moral or immoral?

I haven't seen anybody ask you this, and was thinking it might prove something in my head if I got an honest answer.

Well, morals are based on empathy and selfishness and defined by society, so yes... but they are that way because God preordained them that way.

Quote:Also, another one: Does God control everything, and is God nonjudgeable based on his actions?

Yes and yes.

Quote:Sorry, but I just thought of one other: you mentioned this about guns....

If a man killed with a gun, is it the guns fault, or the persons?

The person. And, I see where you're going with this. Ultimately, yes, it is God's fault; however, society doesn't always believe in a God, so blaming Him for it won't suffice as a punishment. For society to function efficiently with elect and non-elect, people have to believe in freewill - even though it doesn't exist. This, again, is preordained and controlled by God.

By your own theology, Everybodies action is perfect, because God made them do it for your plan, so you can't judge humans actions, because it is God making them do the actions.

So, you can't talk about human morality, since there is no such thing.
Also, because God controls human actions, and he is unjudgeable by your standards, so that means Humans and God are unjudgeable

I am not saying God should take the blame, but I am saying you can't call people immoral or moral, because the actions they do, are planned by God, which is unjudgeable.

By default, the humans, and the actions, are unjudgable.

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30-07-2012, 12:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 12:24 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 07:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, morals are based on empathy and selfishness and defined by society, so yes... but they are that way because God preordained them that way.


Yes and yes.


The person. And, I see where you're going with this. Ultimately, yes, it is God's fault; however, society doesn't always believe in a God, so blaming Him for it won't suffice as a punishment. For society to function efficiently with elect and non-elect, people have to believe in freewill - even though it doesn't exist. This, again, is preordained and controlled by God.

By your own theology, Everybodies action is perfect, so you can't judge humans actions, because it is God making them do the actions.

So, you can't talk about human morality, since there is no such thing.
Also, because God controls human actions, and he is unjudgeable by your standards, so that means Humans and God are unjudgeable

I am not saying God should take the blame, but I am saying you can't call people immoral or moral, because the actions they do, are planned by God, which is unjudgeable.

By default, the humans, and the actions, are unjudgable.

Correlation does not imply causation

Also, you're creating a false dilemma.

From the beginning of infinity (sic), God chose those who were going to be saved and damned those who were going to be damned. God controls everyone's actions, and He judges the non-elect.

You say that if God controls all, and if God is perfect, then everything is perfect; since God is perfect and cannot be judge, then there isn't anything than can be judge.

God is the only one that can judge. His plan was for these people to be judged by Him because He created humanity imperfect. The creating of imperfection is part of His perfection so to speak.

Morality doesn't decide perfection or salvation. Besides, morality is relative. Sins are only sins based on the relative morality of society.

Humans cannot be judged by other humans. The only permissible judgment is that of the relative laws of the society (which God affirms and supports); however, in terms of salvation, there is no judgment of a human by another human.

God judges humans based on their non-election and their preordained imperfection.

Their imperfection is exactly that. You can't say that imperfection is perfection because God designed it. Yes, it is perfect by design, but it's not perfect because of it's purpose. Imperfection's purpose is, simply, to be imperfect. Just because you change the semantics of the word, it doesn't change its purpose.

Does this make sense?

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30-07-2012, 01:00 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 12:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 12:24 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  By your own theology, Everybodies action is perfect, so you can't judge humans actions, because it is God making them do the actions.

So, you can't talk about human morality, since there is no such thing.
Also, because God controls human actions, and he is unjudgeable by your standards, so that means Humans and God are unjudgeable

I am not saying God should take the blame, but I am saying you can't call people immoral or moral, because the actions they do, are planned by God, which is unjudgeable.

By default, the humans, and the actions, are unjudgable.

Correlation does not imply causation

Also, you're creating a false dilemma.

From the beginning of infinity (sic), God chose those who were going to be saved and damned those who were going to be damned. God controls everyone's actions, and He judges the non-elect.

You say that if God controls all, and if God is perfect, then everything is perfect; since God is perfect and cannot be judge, then there isn't anything than can be judge.

God is the only one that can judge. His plan was for these people to be judged by Him because He created humanity imperfect. The creating of imperfection is part of His perfection so to speak.

Morality doesn't decide perfection or salvation. Besides, morality is relative. Sins are only sins based on the relative morality of society.

Humans cannot be judged by other humans. The only permissible judgment is that of the relative laws of the society (which God affirms and supports); however, in terms of salvation, there is no judgment of a human by another human.

God judges humans based on their non-election and their preordained imperfection.

Their imperfection is exactly that. You can't say that imperfection is perfection because God designed it. Yes, it is perfect by design, but it's not perfect because of it's purpose. Imperfection's purpose is, simply, to be imperfect. Just because you change the semantics of the word, it doesn't change its purpose.

Does this make sense?

I am not saying nobody can judge, I am saying that you can't judge a human by his actions because his actions are controlled by God, who's actions are unjudgable.

So you can't judge a humans actions, because they are, in extension, an action by God.

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30-07-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 01:00 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 12:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Correlation does not imply causation

Also, you're creating a false dilemma.

From the beginning of infinity (sic), God chose those who were going to be saved and damned those who were going to be damned. God controls everyone's actions, and He judges the non-elect.

You say that if God controls all, and if God is perfect, then everything is perfect; since God is perfect and cannot be judge, then there isn't anything than can be judge.

God is the only one that can judge. His plan was for these people to be judged by Him because He created humanity imperfect. The creating of imperfection is part of His perfection so to speak.

Morality doesn't decide perfection or salvation. Besides, morality is relative. Sins are only sins based on the relative morality of society.

Humans cannot be judged by other humans. The only permissible judgment is that of the relative laws of the society (which God affirms and supports); however, in terms of salvation, there is no judgment of a human by another human.

God judges humans based on their non-election and their preordained imperfection.

Their imperfection is exactly that. You can't say that imperfection is perfection because God designed it. Yes, it is perfect by design, but it's not perfect because of it's purpose. Imperfection's purpose is, simply, to be imperfect. Just because you change the semantics of the word, it doesn't change its purpose.

Does this make sense?

I am not saying nobody can judge, I am saying that you can't judge a human by his actions because his actions are controlled by God, who's actions are unjudgable.

So you can't judge a humans actions, because they are, in extension, an action by God.

Right. We do not have the right to judge anyone's actions unless they break the laws put in place by humans (government). God endorses this because He knows that because of humanity's imperfection that there will be crime. God knows that in order for there to be a functioning, civilized society; there needs to be law.

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