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02-08-2012, 04:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Picture a void.

Add an atom.

Add a whole bunch of atoms.

Shape them into a human.

Start the heart beating.

Pumping fluids around the body.


Agree with me, atoms behaviour is governed by mathematical rules without the influence of deity, as far as we can tell.

Now your human... oh FFS add some oxygen.

I see that guy's personality as being an interesting emergent property of the arrangement of the atoms in his brain, nothing more.

He has no real *choice* how to react to anything. It looks like he does. But every decision he makes is simply the result of millions of years of optimized evolution looking for the next meal, and ultimately rests with a bunch of atoms in his brain going down the right paths and firing the right neurons.

That's why I assert that *ultimately* I believe there is no free will.

Of course, this is open to challenge... but challenge will prove extremely difficult. It's also open to *alternate views*. Propose a more reasonable one?
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02-08-2012, 04:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-08-2012 04:54 PM)morondog Wrote:  Of course, this is open to challenge... but challenge will prove extremely difficult.

By this I mean that the whole shebang that I just described... I wouldn't know where to begin testing it...

edit: PS KC sorry for hijacking your thread a little Tongue
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02-08-2012, 04:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-08-2012 04:54 PM)morondog Wrote:  Picture a void.

Add an atom.

Add a whole bunch of atoms.

Shape them into a human.

Start the heart beating.

Pumping fluids around the body.


Agree with me, atoms behaviour is governed by mathematical rules without the influence of deity, as far as we can tell.

Now your human... oh FFS add some oxygen.

I see that guy's personality as being an interesting emergent property of the arrangement of the atoms in his brain, nothing more.

He has no real *choice* how to react to anything. It looks like he does. But every decision he makes is simply the result of millions of years of optimized evolution looking for the next meal, and ultimately rests with a bunch of atoms in his brain going down the right paths and firing the right neurons.

That's why I assert that *ultimately* I believe there is no free will.

Of course, this is open to challenge... but challenge will prove extremely difficult. It's also open to *alternate views*. Propose a more reasonable one?
Oh, I see.

I can't challenge that, but I will research and see if it is true.

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02-08-2012, 05:03 PM
Try this ...
Your brain is hardware, your mind is software.

This is oversimplified, but it's a useful model.

The software is self-modifying and can affect the hardware; the hardware enables and limits the software.

The complexity of the the components certainly makes it appear that there is free will, and we can not prove that there isn't.

We may prove that there isn't, we may prove that there can be. Hasn't happened yet.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-08-2012, 05:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Arguing from ignorance is bad when other people do it but I've got a license.

Maybe it'd be better if we defined what we mean by free will...

The concept of a free choice...

Do we mean a choice that is somehow *affected by our consciousness*? In the sense that our consciousness we are asserting is somehow separate from the rest of the universe? 'Cos if our consciousness is part of the universe then... it's affected by the laws of physics same like everything else surely... which means that it *cannot* choose not to obey the laws of physics. Which means, according to our current understanding, that *at most* it quantum mechanics will allow an improbable outcome to happen, but it's still not a choice that we can say in anyway was *made* by the consciousness...?

On the other hand... sure it's unprovable but consciousness *outside* the universe seems even more vastly improbable.

Unless my third hypothesis is true, which is that I'm drugged up to the eyeballs laying on a couch somewhere and this universe is a result of my hallucination...
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02-08-2012, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2012 07:01 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Try this ...
(02-08-2012 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  The complexity of the the components certainly makes it appear that there is free will, ...

Yes, but I know I'm readily fooled. ... And complexity warrants inspection in my experience. Smile

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-08-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-08-2012 05:18 PM)morondog Wrote:  Arguing from ignorance is bad when other people do it but I've got a license.

Maybe it'd be better if we defined what we mean by free will...

The concept of a free choice...

Do we mean a choice that is somehow *affected by our consciousness*? In the sense that our consciousness we are asserting is somehow separate from the rest of the universe? 'Cos if our consciousness is part of the universe then... it's affected by the laws of physics same like everything else surely... which means that it *cannot* choose not to obey the laws of physics. Which means, according to our current understanding, that *at most* it quantum mechanics will allow an improbable outcome to happen, but it's still not a choice that we can say in anyway was *made* by the consciousness...?

On the other hand... sure it's unprovable but consciousness *outside* the universe seems even more vastly improbable.

Unless my third hypothesis is true, which is that I'm drugged up to the eyeballs laying on a couch somewhere and this universe is a result of my hallucination...

The fuck Brother, hope you brought the appropriate gear. Wink

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-08-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Try this ...
(02-08-2012 06:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-08-2012 05:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  The complexity of the the components certainly makes it appear that there is free will, ...

Yes, but I know I'm readily fooled. ... And complexity warrants inspection in my experience. Smile

Yup.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-08-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-07-2012 07:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 04:51 PM)Magoo Wrote:  Does this specialness to be elect pass on through children? So would your kid be elect?

It's not inherited. It's only by God's choice.

I know it is only God's choice, but I thought he may be more inclined to save his chosen ones children.
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05-08-2012, 09:36 PM
Ask a Theist!
(05-08-2012 08:01 PM)Magoo Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 07:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's not inherited. It's only by God's choice.

I know it is only God's choice, but I thought he may be more inclined to save his chosen ones children.

Don't be alarmed, Magoo.
The cool thing is, KC's children are elect...until they become free thinkers and realize what a load of bunk was eveything they were taught in Sunday School. Thumbsup

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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