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11-09-2012, 12:20 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 12:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Pretty sure it's hypocritical to condemn something and then do that which you condemn.

But mostly, it was a sardonic response to his unfounded assessment and accusations.

Edit: morondog, I don't think you read accurately. I didn't say he didn't mean what he said.

To me hypocrisy more or less means: "you say what you don't believe in order to gain some advantage"... it also carries some negative connotations ... so maybe more like "you say what you don't believe (you absolute bastard) in order to gain some advantage".

An example would be a politician adopting a strong stance against Martian immigrants just because it's a political issue and he can get a few more votes that way, not because he genuinely cares about the issues.

But mostly I just dislike the word. I think it gets thrown around in debate way too much. Oh well Tongue Guess I can forgive you for being snarky Wink Not like I don't have my own snark reserves Tongue
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11-09-2012, 07:35 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 12:20 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-09-2012 12:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Pretty sure it's hypocritical to condemn something and then do that which you condemn.

But mostly, it was a sardonic response to his unfounded assessment and accusations.

Edit: morondog, I don't think you read accurately. I didn't say he didn't mean what he said.

To me hypocrisy more or less means: "you say what you don't believe in order to gain some advantage"... it also carries some negative connotations ... so maybe more like "you say what you don't believe (you absolute bastard) in order to gain some advantage".

An example would be a politician adopting a strong stance against Martian immigrants just because it's a political issue and he can get a few more votes that way, not because he genuinely cares about the issues.

But mostly I just dislike the word. I think it gets thrown around in debate way too much. Oh well Tongue Guess I can forgive you for being snarky Wink Not like I don't have my own snark reserves Tongue

lol thanks.

After reading your definition, I think it's just a matter of semantics.

Basically, I see hypocrisy as "not practicing what you preach".

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11-09-2012, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 08:16 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-09-2012 10:17 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:Which great invention, in the last one hundred jears, was directly invented by a theist?

Wright Brothers
Allen Sandage
Enrico Fermi
Michael Polanyi
Niels Bohr
Guglielmo Marconi
Henry Ford
Max Planck
Nicola Tesla
Alexander Graham Bell
Thomas Edison

And these were just the Christians. Pretty important stuff those guys did...
Actually, many of them were either atheists or deists. At least read your own sources before posting them.

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11-09-2012, 08:23 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-09-2012 03:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's not really a fair assessment. And to say that I'm intellectually dishonest and unwilling to consider that my change wasn't divine is also an unfair claim.

I have deeply and thoroughly considered that it was simple psychosis that changed me. I have spent many hours on it.
Whom are you trying to fool? If you had used your intellectual skills to think about it for 'hours', you wouldn't have come to the conclusion that because you had an astounding experience, the biblical god exists and gives a shit about you.

(10-09-2012 03:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But you can never know my anecdotal experiences nor prove them, so there is no way for you to say one way or another if I have considered these things or if I did or not have a divine conversion. The only thing you have to go on is what I say, and it is up to you to believe me or not when I say I was completely lucid during the events.
I wouldn't even need to know anything about your anecdotal evidence to be able to say that nothing you could even possibly experience could logically lead to the conclusion that not only a god exists, but that it's the god of the bible specifically.

(10-09-2012 03:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your assessment of me should be based on what you know of me and what you've experienced from me. The fact that I'm rational and lucid in my conversations should be evidence enough, that because of my known character, I would have considered something other than divine intervention.
See above.

(10-09-2012 03:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, don't misinterpret my continued refutations of my change as intellectual dishonesty. Just because you've only seen me refute the claims doesn't mean I haven't considered alternatives. You're judging me based on snippets of my entire history, which isn't fair.
What refutations are you talking about?

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11-09-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 08:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-09-2012 10:17 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Wright Brothers
Allen Sandage
Enrico Fermi
Michael Polanyi
Niels Bohr
Guglielmo Marconi
Henry Ford
Max Planck
Nicola Tesla
Alexander Graham Bell
Thomas Edison

And these were just the Christians. Pretty important stuff those guys did...
Actually, many of them were either atheists or deists. At least read your own sources before posting them.

Many?

One (Bohr) converted to atheism and that was an oversight on my part.

Two converted to Deism (Edison and Planck).

Tesla's religion was uncertain, but he spend most of his life as a Christian.

ONE on that list wasn't a theist. And that one converted to atheism later in life.

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11-09-2012, 08:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 12:07 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  So, KC, I'm just wondering; what drew you here?

(sorry if already asked!)

germanyt introduced me to this forum.

It was unblocked at work, so it started out as a way to pass downtime.

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11-09-2012, 09:00 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 08:23 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Whom are you trying to fool? If you had used your intellectual skills to think about it for 'hours', you wouldn't have come to the conclusion that because you had an astounding experience, the biblical god exists and gives a shit about you.

No. Just no.

There isn't a standard for this type of thing. No 1=1. This was my experience, and just because you don't agree with it or think it possible doesn't mean it didn't happen or I didn't think about things.

That's pretty arrogant, dude.

Quote:I wouldn't even need to know anything about your anecdotal evidence to be able to say that nothing you could even possibly experience could logically lead to the conclusion that not only a god exists, but that it's the god of the bible specifically.

So, you're taking the Marco Kreiger route and using willful ignorance to form assumptions and conclusions about myself?

I would venture to say that my anecdotal evidence is extremely important to understanding my experience. My anecdotal experiences led me to my beliefs. That's how I discovered Christianity.

Quote:See above.

See above.

Quote:What refutations are you talking about?

I've had lots of back and forth with Chas about this. I assumed you read it since you said that I have denied explanations of my experience.

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11-09-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 09:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No. Just no.

There isn't a standard for this type of thing. No 1=1. This was my experience, and just because you don't agree with it or think it possible doesn't mean it didn't happen or I didn't think about things.

That's pretty arrogant, dude.

[...]

So, you're taking the Marco Kreiger route and using willful ignorance to form assumptions and conclusions about myself?

I would venture to say that my anecdotal evidence is extremely important to understanding my experience. My anecdotal experiences led me to my beliefs. That's how I discovered Christianity.
You don't get it, KC. You simply don't get it. You don't understand that this has nothing to do with me not agreeing or me thinking that it wasn't possible. You don't understand that anecdotal evidence cannot prove the supernatural. You don't understand that your brain is not as reliable as you pretend it to be. You don't get that it's irrational to jump from a simple experience to a life-determining belief that has no basis in reality whatsoever, a belief for which you have nothing but faith. I really wonder if you will ever be able to understand this.

That being said, don't get me started on arrogance. Who is more arrogant, me, claiming that your conversion was completely irrational or you, claiming that you have been elected by the creator of our universe to enjoy your time with him together in heaven and that everyone else is not worthy of it?

(11-09-2012 09:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I've had lots of back and forth with Chas about this. I assumed you read it since you said that I have denied explanations of my experience.
Yeah, I did read it, but I didn't see you refuting anything. Then again, that was months ago, I may have forgotten some things. Consider

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11-09-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 09:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  You don't get it, KC. You simply don't get it. You don't understand that this has nothing to do with me not agreeing or me thinking that it wasn't possible. You don't understand that anecdotal evidence cannot prove the supernatural. You don't understand that your brain is not as reliable as you pretend it to be. You don't get that it's irrational to jump from a simple experience to a life-determining belief that has no basis in reality whatsoever, a belief for which you have nothing but faith. I really wonder if you will ever be able to understand this.

No, I do get that. In fact, I've discussed exhaustively.

My evidence proves it to me. I've never said or implied that it should ever prove it for anyone else. As you said, anecdotal evidence is weak.

Mine, however, was strong enough for me to mold my beliefs.

Quote:That being said, don't get me started on arrogance. Who is more arrogant, me, claiming that your conversion was completely irrational or you, claiming that you have been elected by the creator of our universe to enjoy your time with him together in heaven and that everyone else is not worthy of it?

I apologize for the comment. It was out of place. Sorry.

And yes, my beliefs are arrogant.

Quote:Yeah, I did read it, but I didn't see you refuting anything. Then again, that was months ago, I may have forgotten some things. Consider

That's why I'm a bit worn out on this. Chas and I have gone through this since I first came here.

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11-09-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-09-2012 09:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's why I'm a bit worn out on this. Chas and I have gone through this since I first came here.

We could go over it again for old times' sake.Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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