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13-12-2011, 12:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 12:13 AM)cufflink Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 01:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  My question concerns your views on hell--more specifically, your feelings about the people you come into contact with who you believe are going there.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume your Calvinist faith incorporates all the following beliefs:

1. There is life after death, specifically (in GirlyMan's useful terminology) postmortem preservation of identity.
2. Hell is a real place of eternal torment.
3. The vast majority of humanity are destined to hell.

So unless you somehow arrange your life so you only ever associate with the Elect, which clearly you haven't done, then you're constantly coming into contact with people you believe are heading for hell--in particular, with only a couple of possible exceptions, all the people on this forum. I've noticed you have a good relationship with a number of TTA members, as evidenced by the friendly posts, the joking, the obvious mutual respect. And yet I gather you believe that virtually all the people you've met here are heading for a hideous future, one of eternal, unending torment, of wailing and gnashing of teeth, forever.

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and imagine how that must feel psychologically. I think it would drive me crazy to meet people I like and care about, knowing--or rather, believing--that they're heading for eternal torture. It would be rather like seeing a driver with his foot on the floor hurtling at 90 mph towards the edge of a cliff and not being able to do anything about it. What do such beliefs do to your relations with people?

Again, if I've mischaracterized your beliefs in any way, please correct me.

1) Preservation of earthly identity is still questionable. I'm leaning to more not.
2) Yes
3) Yes

I cannot say if any one person specifically (on this board) is going to hell because, who knows, every single one of you could be regenerated (not likely, but still possible). I don't know God's plan for each of you, so I cannot pre-judge any of your fates. As such, I treat every person as if they're on their cusp of their regeneration. It is sad that people I care about and people I interact with will be in hell; however, this is beyond my power. The best I can do is treat them the way I would want to be treated and enjoy the earthly time with them I have left; and continue to live like Christ to whomever I meet - no matter their religious views.

Thanks for the reply.

As you lean towards the non retention of human identity, what constitutes the phenomena to be tortured eternally?

Do you perhaps envisage, simply, a great mass of detached writhing pain and sense of misery forever and ever ad infinitum?

It really seems
unfair that the chosen ones would be denied a more personal witnessing of such sufferings, don't you think?
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13-12-2011, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2011 09:08 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-12-2011 06:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 01:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  ...
1. There is life after death, specifically (in GirlyMan's useful terminology) postmortem preservation of identity.
2. Hell is a real place of eternal torment.
3. The vast majority of humanity are destined to hell.

1) Preservation of earthly identity is still questionable. I'm leaning to more not.
2) Yes
3) Yes

Then why the fuck would I even give a shit either way? Tain't gonna be me that's suffering or hallelujahing. ... I'll reiterate my earlier observation, I ain't seeing much practical difference between a Calvinist and a nihilist.

Christian Soldier y u no get better knee armor?

Non-theologically speaking - hope.


(13-12-2011 12:39 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:   As you lean towards the non retention of human identity, what constitutes the phenomena to be tortured eternally?

Do you perhaps envisage, simply, a great mass of detached writhing pain and sense of misery forever and ever ad infinitum?

It really seems
unfair that the chosen ones would be denied a more personal witnessing of such sufferings, don't you think?

I believe that the non-elect will have a different state of being because it's made clear that in heaven there will be no suffering (includes emotional); however, in hell, pain is abundant.

And no, why is it unfair that the elect witness suffering? That would cause pain.
(13-12-2011 12:13 AM)cufflink Wrote:  Thanks for the reply.

You're welcome.
(12-12-2011 07:24 PM)SecularStudent Wrote:  Ooh, I love asking theists questions! I've never been a theist, so I really have no reference point to understand how any of them think. I am also really curious as to how anybody can believe in a god (especially a theistic one), so thank you for this opportunity to learn more about your perspective.

Okay, so here are my questions: Do you believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired, "Word of God"? If so, why? Why do you believe that this specific book, above all others, is a god's message for humanity?

Also, can you think of any better ways that your god could communicate with humans across the globe? If so, why do you think that your god chose to communicate through a book to a group of largely illiterate people?

Thanks in advance for answering Tongue


- Oh, and by the way, I've read your responses in this thread, and I must say that it is refreshing to meet a theist who accepts science and doesn't discriminate against homosexuals Big Grin It gives me hope for the future. -

Sorry, I accidentally overlooked your post.

1) Yes, I believe it is divinely inspired. Why? Because it's what my faith and the Holy Spirit have led me to believe. I also have faith that God inspired the canonization of the books. I have no tangible proof for this except my own faith.

2) A better way? Hmmmm, well... besides coming to earth as a human? I'm not really sure. OT believers learned through oral teachings, so the illiteracy thing wasn't detrimental.

And, thank you Smile

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13-12-2011, 11:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(09-12-2011 09:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 07:05 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  1) If he so desired, would God be capable of creating a rock so heavy that he himself could not lift it?

2) What was the point of Jesus? From what I understand he died so our sins could be forgiven but what is the link there, what does Jesus' death have to with forgiveness? Why couldn't God just forgive people? (Kinda like how we have a forgiven thread in the casual coffeehouse and people don't have to sacrifice someone every-time they post.)

3) Why did God rectify the issue of no-one being able to get into heaven during mankind's existence, surely he foresaw the problem?

1) Ok, I really want to go into some detail on this. Just to let you know (you might not care), but Christians roll their eyes at these particular questions. Atheists and non-believers like to ask this and it's akin to a Creationists telling an Evolutionist that if we came from monkeys then how come we still have monkeys. You think it's your ace-in-the-hole, but theologically speaking it's more of a facepalm. If you really, really want to annoy Christians when you're debating them, keep asking this question in some form and make them extensively and exhaustively explain it. Oh and use semantics on them too. They'll start to rage pretty quickly (need to stop giving y'all tactics <_<).

Anyhoo, the explanation: the question is a contradiction. God cannot contradict himself. Also, the question is a fallacy of semantics (as aforementioned). God is all powerful, therefore He cannot be something that He isn't. If He creates something that defies His power then we've created a circular paradox. And while, it's lulzy for you, it isn't a fair question to the theist. If you REALLY want to annoy an Arminian Christian, use this same tactic when addressing free will and omniscience... if they counter with, "well God is all powerful, so He gave us the power to be able to choose", then ask them how an all powerful God can relinquish His power to a human? Doesn't that take away from His omnipotence.

You see, God is either all power or He isn't. Since God is all powerful He cannot create a paradox about His power. But, as I've stated, if you want to get lulzy with Christians, keep hammering this.

2) I know I've answered this question several times before, but I'll do it again. The point of Jesus was to die for us. The point of Him dying was to give Himself a purpose and an inheritance. Before the foundations of the world, the plan was to have Jesus sacrifice Himself for the elect, thus giving Himself a purpose. Why go through all of this stuff to do that? I don't know. I don't know God's will. I'm sorry if that answer isn't the answer you wanted, but I'm honest about it.

3) God chose the ones He wanted for salvation before the foundations of the world (Eph 1:4). Those that were chosen that died before Jesus had their sins already paid for by Jesus' eventual sacrifice. Why did God allow people to exist thousands of years before Jesus? Again, that's His will and plan, and I can't answer for Him no more than you can answer what my plans for tomorrow are. His ultimate plan is unknown to us.
(09-12-2011 08:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 08:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; however, He had a plan for the Jews. In order for His plan to be fulfilled there was a number of things that had to be done (that crazy stuff in the OT). This would pave the way for Jesus by establishing the Hebrews.

There were also things commanded of the Jews that were JUST for Jews. Like I said, this was a matter of obedience, symbolism, and purity laws.

When Jesus arrived, the knowledge of the Jewish God was established and widespread, and so, this allowed Jesus to enact God's plan.

So, in short, God remains the same, but His plan is enacted differently before Jesus.[

Sounds like a stripped-down Dispensationalism.

Except without the dispensations.

If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

/thread

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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13-12-2011, 11:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-12-2011, 11:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It's germanyt.

His sole purpose is to eff with me.

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13-12-2011, 11:50 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It's germanyt.

His sole purpose is to eff with me.

I smell a man-crush.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-12-2011, 11:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:50 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It's germanyt.

His sole purpose is to eff with me.

I smell a man-crush.

He did hump my desk yesterday.

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13-12-2011, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2011 12:12 PM by germanyt.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.


IMO if God is not omnipotent in our understanding of omnipotence I can't see why anyone would call him God. Anything other than completely and utterly all powerful and all knowing would discredit the very idea God. If God has just one flaw then the religious descriptions of him are false. If he exists and is capable of mistakes then well...............

(13-12-2011 11:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It's germanyt.

His sole purpose is to eff with me.


U mad bro?

(13-12-2011 11:52 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:50 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:47 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 11:39 AM)germanyt Wrote:  If god is all powerful then he can do anything. If he cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. If he can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it then he is not all powerful. So whether he can or can't, he is not all powerful. Thus god is not real.

I think, maybe your conclusion would be more precise if it said: Thus god is not omnipotent in our way of understanding omnipotence.

It's germanyt.

His sole purpose is to eff with me.

I smell a man-crush.

He did hump my desk yesterday.

No, I was humpin imaginary Shelby (the owner's neice, not the car y'all) in front of you.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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13-12-2011, 12:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
touche

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13-12-2011, 12:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 11:53 AM)germanyt Wrote:  No, I was humpin imaginary Shelby (the owner's neice, not the car y'all) in front of you.

Ah yes, who hasn't done this?

I don't believe in God.
However, it's not the argument that God can't destroy himself that convinces me. What purpose would that serve for God to commit suicide? Scratch that. God did commit suicide on the cross.
But for one thing, how do we know that God can't kill himself? And how do we know that God can't make an object so heavy that he can't lift and still be all powerful? Someone who believes in God, usually believes he exists outside our sense of time and space and physical laws. So these sorts of philosophical exercises are fun to think about, but they aren't the "zingers" that non-believers think they are.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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