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22-10-2012, 08:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
179 pages and the man is still a theist? Jesus. We need to bring out the big guns.

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How about this, if the universe is actually infinite and so is its origin, then what does that mean about your theological belief? What I mean to say is, what if our universe is either A) a part of a cyclic rhythm where the universe expands, contracts, and then expands again. With neither a beginning nor an end. Or B) Our universe is the spawn of another universe that originated from another universe, and so on ad nauseum for infinity?

I realize these are hypotheticals based on different ideas floating on about the universe and not entirely easy to answer.

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22-10-2012, 08:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(15-10-2012 10:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  KC, you say that Sin was necessary for Christ... But that isn't true is it?

I mean, if God is All-powerful, Sin isn't necessary, nothing is necessary if you could do anything you want, no matter how illogical and impossible it is.

Basically nothing God does is necessary because it could always be another way.

Did I really say necessary? If I did, that's a poor word choice... but it's not wholly wrong.

As far as "necessary" goes: Yes, nothing is "necessary" for God; as God can do whatever He wants.

BUT, it becomes "necessary" if God plans it that way.

"Necessary" becomes dependent on God, not the other way around.

So, in a sense, sin is "necessary" because it was a part of God's plan.

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22-10-2012, 08:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-10-2012 04:58 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(11-10-2012 09:21 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  With more theology, but yes.


Nah. God hasn't called me to be proselytizer.

I didn't expect that answer, so I should have said "whether I have understood you or not would you please elaborate." So, will you please?

Humans did not sin until God placed His image on them. Once this was done, the human soul became timeless; capable of judgment.

The human in existence before God enacted His plan were no different than any animal. They were simply in a finite existence.

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22-10-2012, 08:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-10-2012 08:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  179 pages and the man is still a theist? Jesus. We need to bring out the big guns.

[Image: CtipW.gif]

How about this, if the universe is actually infinite and so is its origin, then what does that mean about your theological belief? What I mean to say is, what if our universe is either A) a part of a cyclic rhythm where the universe expands, contracts, and then expands again. With neither a beginning nor an end. Or B) Our universe is the spawn of another universe that originated from another universe, and so on ad nauseum for infinity?

I realize these are hypotheticals based on different ideas floating on about the universe and not entirely easy to answer.

Who says the universe if infinite? In both A and B, that shows zero evidence of infinity. Infinity has no beginning or end... sure, A and B might have no end, but they have a beginning. This is called timelessness; not eternal (infinity).

If you do believe something is infinite, you're self refuting your argument - you're trading semantics - "God" for "universe".

Also, you don't get to assign beliefs to my theology. I don't believe the universe is infinite, so your questions are moot.

On a side note: I miss you man... we haven't talked in a while. : /

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22-10-2012, 10:27 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-10-2012 08:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 08:08 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  179 pages and the man is still a theist? Jesus. We need to bring out the big guns.

[Image: CtipW.gif]

How about this, if the universe is actually infinite and so is its origin, then what does that mean about your theological belief? What I mean to say is, what if our universe is either A) a part of a cyclic rhythm where the universe expands, contracts, and then expands again. With neither a beginning nor an end. Or B) Our universe is the spawn of another universe that originated from another universe, and so on ad nauseum for infinity?

I realize these are hypotheticals based on different ideas floating on about the universe and not entirely easy to answer.

Who says the universe if infinite? In both A and B, that shows zero evidence of infinity. Infinity has no beginning or end... sure, A and B might have no end, but they have a beginning. This is called timelessness; not eternal (infinity).

If you do believe something is infinite, you're self refuting your argument - you're trading semantics - "God" for "universe".

Also, you don't get to assign beliefs to my theology. I don't believe the universe is infinite, so your questions are moot.

On a side note: I miss you man... we haven't talked in a while. : /

It was more a hypothetical "if" since our current model still indicates it is finite (at least in its origins and supposed ending).

What about the cyclic and the multiverse hypothesis (B) require a beginning? I don't see how they have a first cause, but I am no cosmological scholar either. Also, multiverse hypotheses would be more than just timeless.

I don't see how I am trading semantics either. To me the cyclic hypothesis is as the seasonality exhibited here on Earth. It comes and goes based on the physical laws of nature and life coexists with it. The same with the cyclic universe. It comes and goes completely indifferent to the plight of life. It is a mindless and blind venture. It has no memory (in the statistical sense) and simply moves through its progression.

For the multiverse hypothesis, more than one universe exists. Each universe is the spawn of another universe, but through natural events whereby one universe breaks out of another.

I CAN INSERT WHATEVER BELIEFS I WANT INTO YOUR BELIEFS!!! I DECIDE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!

Wait...let's see...(*checks notes)...oh...oops...I don't decide what you believe. Damn, I was so close.

I don't remember if this is something you and I have addressed before, so I'll just ask it and hope it isn't a repeat. Does god intervene in the natural order in your belief system? (I feel like your answer to this is yes as I have read other posts where you talk about sin and so on) The question is basically, are you on the deist pill or the theist one?

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22-10-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-10-2012 10:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 08:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Who says the universe if infinite? In both A and B, that shows zero evidence of infinity. Infinity has no beginning or end... sure, A and B might have no end, but they have a beginning. This is called timelessness; not eternal (infinity).

If you do believe something is infinite, you're self refuting your argument - you're trading semantics - "God" for "universe".

Also, you don't get to assign beliefs to my theology. I don't believe the universe is infinite, so your questions are moot.

On a side note: I miss you man... we haven't talked in a while. : /

It was more a hypothetical "if" since our current model still indicates it is finite (at least in its origins and supposed ending).

What about the cyclic and the multiverse hypothesis (B) require a beginning? I don't see how they have a first cause, but I am no cosmological scholar either. Also, multiverse hypotheses would be more than just timeless.

I don't see how I am trading semantics either. To me the cyclic hypothesis is as the seasonality exhibited here on Earth. It comes and goes based on the physical laws of nature and life coexists with it. The same with the cyclic universe. It comes and goes completely indifferent to the plight of life. It is a mindless and blind venture. It has no memory (in the statistical sense) and simply moves through its progression.

For the multiverse hypothesis, more than one universe exists. Each universe is the spawn of another universe, but through natural events whereby one universe breaks out of another.

I CAN INSERT WHATEVER BELIEFS I WANT INTO YOUR BELIEFS!!! I DECIDE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!

Wait...let's see...(*checks notes)...oh...oops...I don't decide what you believe. Damn, I was so close.

I don't remember if this is something you and I have addressed before, so I'll just ask it and hope it isn't a repeat. Does god intervene in the natural order in your belief system? (I feel like your answer to this is yes as I have read other posts where you talk about sin and so on) The question is basically, are you on the deist pill or the theist one?

[Image: CtipW.gif]

It's just that the multiverse has no empirical evidence like God (my brother and I were actually talking about this morning).

So, you're basing your argument on something non-empirical to disprove my non-empirical argument... I guess that's why I said the semantic thing. Also, if you believe something is infinite (with no evidence) how is that any different than God being infinite (with no evidence). I just don't see the difference.

About God intervening: This would imply limited knowledge and a progressive nature. God doesn't have this (He is omniscient and pre-planned everything). He doesn't intervene in the progressive way; He intervenes when the times comes that He wanted to change the course - His plan was always set this way - there could never be any other realities because God set up His intervention from the beginning. It's just a matter of when it happened.

What you are describing is sort of like Process Theology - something I wholly reject.

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22-10-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Some would disagree about the idea that there is no evidence for the multiverse hypothesis. A new satellite is being launched to validate the data being used to support the multiverse hypothesis. I think someone may have linked some information about that in the elegant nature of science thread.

Also, as for the no evidence of infinity thing, I have no idea how to evaluate the concept of infinity outside of mathematics, and I am no mathematician. I would however venture a guess that in an infinite universe, we can only ever achieve 0% of all the information that exists. If the universe is infinite, then the amount of knowledge is infinite thereby meaning any amount of knowledge we obtain would be less than 0% and more closely approximated by saying it is 0%.

Ergo
if knowledge is k and our estimate of knowledge is E
then
f(k) = f(E) as E approaches K
but if k is infinite, then as K approaches infinity, so must E. Thereby meaning that whatever "amount" of knowledge we have must be less than infinity and statistically, any number less than infinity is 0% of infinity.

I have blown my own mind.
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22-10-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-10-2012 11:12 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Some would disagree about the idea that there is no evidence for the multiverse hypothesis. A new satellite is being launched to validate the data being used to support the multiverse hypothesis. I think someone may have linked some information about that in the elegant nature of science thread.

Also, as for the no evidence of infinity thing, I have no idea how to evaluate the concept of infinity outside of mathematics, and I am no mathematician. I would however venture a guess that in an infinite universe, we can only ever achieve 0% of all the information that exists. If the universe is infinite, then the amount of knowledge is infinite thereby meaning any amount of knowledge we obtain would be less than 0% and more closely approximated by saying it is 0%.

Ergo
if knowledge is k and our estimate of knowledge is E
then
f(k) = f(E) as E approaches K
but if k is infinite, then as K approaches infinity, so must E. Thereby meaning that whatever "amount" of knowledge we have must be less than infinity and statistically, any number less than infinity is 0% of infinity.

I have blown my own mind.
[Image: CtipW.gif]

Very interesting. And yeah, I've thought about any number compared to infinity is 0. Frustrating and mind blowing at the same time.

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22-10-2012, 11:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have a question I am saving for an exam in an upper-level class I may teach sometime in the future. Just to fuck with my students.

How many number exist in-between the numbers 1 and 2?
a) 10
b) 0
c) Can't tell
d) infinity

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22-10-2012, 11:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-10-2012 11:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have a question I am saving for an exam in an upper-level class I may teach sometime in the future. Just to fuck with my students.

How many number exist in-between the numbers 1 and 2?
a) 10
b) 0
c) Can't tell
d) infinity

Thats an easy one, the answer is d) of course Tongue

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