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13-12-2011, 03:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 03:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sorry man. Don't mean to make you fume.

But, can't you just separate your personal feelings about what I believe and view this thread as a learning tool? Use it as a way to learn about the whats and whys of different beliefs.

That's precisely what I have been doing, but I believe that I have learned more than enough about your variety of theism to reject it. It might be time for a new theist to take over.Wink

I'll convert. If it is in the best interest of the group.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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13-12-2011, 03:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Even though many of those instruction are evil, barbaric, or mysogenistic.
Even though there are contradictory instructions.
Even though having faith in God and faith in the Bible are two different things.

I've been polite, but, really, my patience is wearing thin.

1) Instructions to the Jews are just for the Jews.
2) Depending on which ones you're talking about, I will address them.
3) Faith in God results in faith in the Bible.

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13-12-2011, 03:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 08:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 06:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 01:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  ...
1. There is life after death, specifically (in GirlyMan's useful terminology) postmortem preservation of identity.
2. Hell is a real place of eternal torment.
3. The vast majority of humanity are destined to hell.

1) Preservation of earthly identity is still questionable. I'm leaning to more not.
2) Yes
3) Yes

Then why the fuck would I even give a shit either way? Tain't gonna be me that's suffering or hallelujahing. ... I'll reiterate my earlier observation, I ain't seeing much practical difference between a Calvinist and a nihilist.

Christian Soldier y u no get better knee armor?

Non-theologically speaking - hope.


(13-12-2011 12:39 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:   As you lean towards the non retention of human identity, what constitutes the phenomena to be tortured eternally?

Do you perhaps envisage, simply, a great mass of detached writhing pain and sense of misery forever and ever ad infinitum?

It really seems
unfair that the chosen ones would be denied a more personal witnessing of such sufferings, don't you think?

I believe that the non-elect will have a different state of being because it's made clear that in heaven there will be no suffering (includes emotional); however, in hell, pain is abundant.

And no, why is it unfair that the elect witness suffering? That would cause pain.
(13-12-2011 12:13 AM)cufflink Wrote:  Thanks for the reply.
AS YOUR GOD COMES ACROSS AS ONE CRAZY MIXED UP SADIST ONE WOULD EXPECT HIS SUPPORTERS TO DELIGHT IN CRUELTY.

You're welcome.
(12-12-2011 07:24 PM)SecularStudent Wrote:  Ooh, I love asking theists questions! I've never been a theist, so I really have no reference point to understand how any of them think. I am also really curious as to how anybody can believe in a god (especially a theistic one), so thank you for this opportunity to learn more about your perspective.

Okay, so here are my questions: Do you believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired, "Word of God"? If so, why? Why do you believe that this specific book, above all others, is a god's message for humanity?

Also, can you think of any better ways that your god could communicate with humans across the globe? If so, why do you think that your god chose to communicate through a book to a group of largely illiterate people?

Thanks in advance for answering Tongue


- Oh, and by the way, I've read your responses in this thread, and I must say that it is refreshing to meet a theist who accepts science and doesn't discriminate against homosexuals Big Grin It gives me hope for the future. -

Sorry, I accidentally overlooked your post.

1) Yes, I believe it is divinely inspired. Why? Because it's what my faith and the Holy Spirit have led me to believe. I also have faith that God inspired the canonization of the books. I have no tangible proof for this except my own faith.

2) A better way? Hmmmm, well... besides coming to earth as a human? I'm not really sure. OT believers learned through oral teachings, so the illiteracy thing wasn't detrimental.

And, thank you Smile
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13-12-2011, 03:59 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 03:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Even though many of those instruction are evil, barbaric, or mysogenistic.
Even though there are contradictory instructions.
Even though having faith in God and faith in the Bible are two different things.

I've been polite, but, really, my patience is wearing thin.

1) Instructions to the Jews are just for the Jews.
2) Depending on which ones you're talking about, I will address them.
3) Faith in God results in faith in the Bible.

But Jesus makes it clear right off the bat in the NT that he isn't there to change but to enforce. Are today's Jews supposed to follow the OT?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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13-12-2011, 04:06 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 03:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Even though many of those instruction are evil, barbaric, or mysogenistic.
Even though there are contradictory instructions.
Even though having faith in God and faith in the Bible are two different things.

I've been polite, but, really, my patience is wearing thin.

1) Instructions to the Jews are just for the Jews.
2) Depending on which ones you're talking about, I will address them.
3) Faith in God results in faith in the Bible.

Number 3 is a problem. Faith in God leads others to the Koran or the Torah.
And belief in an inerrant Bible contradicts #1 and #2. If the Bible has to be interpreted to be inerrant, whose interpretation is correct - they can't all be.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-12-2011, 04:11 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2011 04:14 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 03:59 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Even though many of those instruction are evil, barbaric, or mysogenistic.
Even though there are contradictory instructions.
Even though having faith in God and faith in the Bible are two different things.

I've been polite, but, really, my patience is wearing thin.

1) Instructions to the Jews are just for the Jews.
2) Depending on which ones you're talking about, I will address them.
3) Faith in God results in faith in the Bible.

But Jesus makes it clear right off the bat in the NT that he isn't there to change but to enforce. Are today's Jews supposed to follow the OT?

No, He is there to fulfill the law (Mat 5:17). The law serves as a blueprint for Jesus' teachings. Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone; not just Jews. Jews are no longer "Jews"; there is only elect and non-elect (Gal 3:28).
(13-12-2011 04:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Even though many of those instruction are evil, barbaric, or mysogenistic.
Even though there are contradictory instructions.
Even though having faith in God and faith in the Bible are two different things.

I've been polite, but, really, my patience is wearing thin.

1) Instructions to the Jews are just for the Jews.
2) Depending on which ones you're talking about, I will address them.
3) Faith in God results in faith in the Bible.

Number 3 is a problem. Faith in God leads others to the Koran or the Torah.
And belief in an inerrant Bible contradicts #1 and #2. If the Bible has to be interpreted to be inerrant, whose interpretation is correct - they can't all be.

Modern translations are indeed errant - which is why I try to use the earliest and most literal translation as well as referencing the original languages when I study.

And, I should have clarified as a "faith in the Christian God".

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13-12-2011, 04:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
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13-12-2011, 04:24 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Now it's my turn.

I find you lack of answers from the bible a little appaling… I being a “formon” (you know, former mormon) seem to a lack of biblical responses that you could have pulled. However here are some problems I do see with what you have said in previous posts. I have read them all, and haven’t seen these simple facts contested. I do not blame you for your lack of biblical knowlege. I blame calvinism…

Here are some points I have yet to see discussed in this forum. Your words are in “”’s
Referring to god’s omnipotence and the heavy stone conundrum.
VVVVV VVVV
“Anyhoo, the explanation: the question is a contradiction. God cannot contradict himself. Also, the question is a fallacy of semantics (as aforementioned). God is all powerful, therefore He cannot be something that He isn't. If He creates something that defies His power then we've created a circular paradox. And while, it's lulzy for you, it isn't a fair question to the theist. If you REALLY want to annoy an Arminian Christian, use this same tactic when addressing free will and omniscience... if they counter with, "well God is all powerful, so He gave us the power to be able to choose", then ask them how an all powerful God can relinquish His power to a human? Doesn't that take away from His omnipotence.”
“) I've alluded to this several time with my other answers. His plan, whatever it is, required Him to do it the way He chose to do it. If He didn't do it a certain way, minutia would have eventually altered His plan. And since altering His plan is impossible, the way God enacts His plan is perfect.”

1.)You’ve alluded to god’s omnipotence, and omniscience. As we learn from the bible, he created Lucifer, the morning star. He is deemed the root of all sin, and the evil one. So since this was a creation of your god, and your god is perfect in all things, does that make him perfectly evil?

2.)How do you reconcile Lucifer being cast from the presence of god, but also seems to have a regular communion with his creator in the book of Job; where Lucifer seemingly comes and goes into council with god as he pleases? Does you god not actually despise the son of perdition?

3.)One of the pillars of Calvinism is accepting the book as the literal word of god. How can you profess that and then say,
“) It depends on the book. The context and audience has to be considered before we can decide what is taken literally and figuratively.”
“) I believe because of my Christian beliefs and what is taught in my holy book.”?

Next topic, and again this is a problem with Calvinism. I would suggest you switching to something a little less “Because it’s what it says” and to something a little more, “This is why it says it”.

“I believe there is no choice in salvation.”

4.)I’ve personally have been asked in the past, “Since you don’t believe in god, why don’t you just kill yourself when life gets hard?” But since you believe in Calvinist views “preordination of salvation”, how can you determine that your life (no matter how good you are, if you aren’t “chosen” you don’t get in), is worth living?

4. a.)Why would a loving caring god create someone he knew was not going to be predestined for his glory? vvv
“) Gay people are like straight people. Just gay. I'm not a judge, and I don't treat anyone differently. God created them gay for a reason; a reason I don't know, so who am I to treat them like they have a problem?”

4. b.)Does he just love some people less? ^^^

4. c.)If 4.b. = yes, then how can YOU personally follow a god who willingly creates a being, just to cast them into damnation without any chance of salvation?

Speaking in tongues resolved from a religious standpoint.
To quote Captin Jack Sparrow "If I may lend a machete to your intellectual thicket…"

I think Paul explained it best when he saw this in the early congregations. This “SPEAKING IN TOUNGS” bit was taken from the day of Pentecost, where the congregation had the quickening of the holy spirit and began to speak in “tongues” (alternate interoperation = languages); that were heard by, and understood by native speakers of those languages. i.e. They spoke in real languages.

When Paul saw and heard of this he said in 1 Corinthians 14:19 “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”
Kind of like, “really, cut the crap, you aren’t being influenced, you are just babbling”.
So Paul basically cut that crap out early in the church, and any denomination that still permits that kind of behavior hasn’t read the new testament very well.

I think we need a different theist’s point of view. This one is kind of all tapped out...
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13-12-2011, 04:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 04:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Modern translations are indeed errant - which is why I try to use the earliest and most literal translation as well as referencing the original languages when I study.

And, I should have clarified as a "faith in the Christian God".

I'm told even the originals are errant, although since I don't read Aramaic or Ancient Greek, I have to take that on faith. Wink

I don't see that having faith in the Christian God necessitates belief in an inerrant Bible. It doesn't logically follow. One could be a very devout Christian and understand that the Bible is mythical, allegorical, and non-factual.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-12-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 08:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 06:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 01:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  ...
1. There is life after death, specifically (in GirlyMan's useful terminology) postmortem preservation of identity.
2. Hell is a real place of eternal torment.
3. The vast majority of humanity are destined to hell.

1) Preservation of earthly identity is still questionable. I'm leaning to more not.
2) Yes
3) Yes

Then why the fuck would I even give a shit either way? Tain't gonna be me that's suffering or hallelujahing. ... I'll reiterate my earlier observation, I ain't seeing much practical difference between a Calvinist and a nihilist.

Christian Soldier y u no get better knee armor?

Non-theologically speaking - hope.

I used to be a Christian like you, then I took an arrow in the knee.

#sigh
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