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10-11-2012, 09:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-11-2012 01:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  “Divines never fail to persuade us, that the enormous distance which separates God and man, necessarily renders the conduct of God a mystery to us, and that we have no right to interrogate our master. Is this answer satisfactory? Since my eternal happiness is at stake, have I not a right to examine the conduct of God himself? It is only in hope of happiness that men submit to the authority of a God. A despot, to whom men submit only through fear, a master, whom they cannot interrogate, a sovereign totally inaccessible, can never merit the homage of intelligent beings. If the conduct of God is a mystery, it is not made for us. Man can neither adore, admire, respect, nor imitate conduct, in which every thing is inconceivable, or, of which he can often form only revolting ideas; unless it is pretended, that we ought to adore every thing of which we are forced to be ignorant, and that every thing, which we do not know, becomes for that reason an object of admiration. Divines! You never cease telling us, that the designs of God are impenetrable; that his ways are not our ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts; that it is absurd to complain of his administration, of the motives and springs of which we are totally ignorant; that it is presumption to tax his judgments with injustice, because we cannot comprehend them. But when you speak in this strain, do you not perceive, that you destroy with your own hands all your profound systems, whose only end is to explain to us the ways of the divinity, which, you say, are impenetrable? Have you penetrated his judgments, his ways, his designs? You dare not assert it, and though you reason about them without end, you do not comprehend them any more than we do. If, by chance, you know the plan of God, which you wish us to admire, while most people find it so little worthy of a just, good, intelligent, and reasonable being, no longer say, this plan is impenetrable. If you are as ignorant of it as we are, have some indulgence for those who ingenuously confess, they comprehend nothing in it, or that they see in it nothing divine. Cease to persecute for opinions, of which you understand nothing yourselves; cease to defame each other for dreams and conjectures, which every thing seems to contradict. Talk to us of things intelligible and really useful to men; and no longer talk to us of the impenetrable ways of God, about which you only stammer and contradict yourselves.

By continually speaking of the immense depths of divine wisdom, forbidding us to sound them, saying it is insolence to cite God before the tribunal of our feeble reason, making it a crime to judge our master, divines teach us nothing but the embarrassment they are in, when it is required to account for the conduct of a God, whose conduct they think marvelous only because they are utterly incapable of comprehending it themselves.”

Excerpt From: Paul Henri Thiry Baron D'Holbach. “Good Sense.”


What do you think of this, KC? I thought it was good enough for me to ask your opinion.
This argument is so trite.

You can question God's right to sovereignty. If you find that God is able to be judged, then He is not God because He is not sovereign - thus eliminating the argument all together. This argument redefines sovereignty and makes the word impotent.

The very fact that God is sovereign eliminates the ability to be judged. God is autonomous .

If you accept His sovereignty, then you accept the fact that judging Him is impossible.

I've expressed this frustration before - a non-theists that tries to disprove theology with theology. It's ridiculous. If you are talking about the Christian God in the terms of reality, you can't redefine parts of His nature and be like, "Ahh got ya now."

You can't question the Christians God's sovereignty because He is sovereign. You can question the reality of the Christian God or question how He can be sovereign and allow bad things to happen, but you cannot point out that He's suppose to be sovereign and then question His acts of sovereignty.

If He is sovereign, then yes, we can NEVER understand Him fully. It's arrogant and intellectually dishonest to question God sovereignty if there is an understanding that God is supposed to be sovereign.

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10-11-2012, 09:53 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-11-2012 04:21 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  “You pretend, that God is immutable! What then produces a continual instability in this world, which you make his empire? Is there a state, subject to more frequent and cruel revolutions, than that of this unknown monarch? How can we attribute to an immutable God, sufficiently powerful to give solidity to his works, a government, in which every thing is in continual vicissitude? If I imagine I see a God of uniform character in all the effects favourable to my species, what kind of a God can I see in their continual misfortunes? You tell me, it is our sins, which compel him to punish. I answer, that God, according to yourselves, is then not immutable, since the sins of men force him to change his conduct towards them. Can a being, who is sometimes provoked, and sometimes appeased, be constantly the same?”

Excerpt From: Paul Henri Thiry Baron D'Holbach. “Good Sense.”

I also want your opinion on this as well KC.
Not much to say on this.

He's not addressing my theology. He's addressing Arminianism.

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10-11-2012, 09:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-11-2012 07:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 01:30 PM)morondog Wrote:  anthropic principle - What do you make of it?

Anthropic principle (my understanding): the fact of live evolving to question why life is so remarkably adapted to conditions in our little corner of the universe - conclusion that the universe is fine tuned for life *cannot* be drawn because in a universe *not* fine tuned for life, life would not be around to ask questions. i.e. the only universes where life attains the ability to question are those which *already* have the correct conditions.

Bum P
Sorry. I don't understand the question.

I feel dumb Sad

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10-11-2012, 10:00 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(04-11-2012 04:42 PM)dimitriye98 Wrote:  
  1. "Pseudomania daemonum" states that there are 6 legions of 66 cohorts divided into 666 companies of 6666 demons. After some multiplication that would belong in hell itself if not for my handy-dandy calculator, the total is 1,758,064,176 demons. Now, 60% of humans in the United States believe that they are going to heaven. Assuming we distribute this sample to all humanity from the dawn of time, we get that 40% of humans, meaning approximately 44,000,000,000 humans will go to hell after death. This means that of the total population of hell only 4% of it would be demons. What do you believe would happen in a human uprising against Satan?
  2. If there is intelligent life among the stars, what is God's opinion of them? Will they go to heaven or to hell?
  3. Do jaywalkers go to hell? By breaking the law aren't they going against authority and therefore incapable of obeying God's word?
1) There are no demons in Hell; likewise, no Satan. Also, this question is not theologically sound.

BUT, if there were demons in Hell and Satan, and the humans decided to revolt, it would be an endless battle. Souls are immortal and timeless and so are demons and angels.

2) I don't know. I'm not God, so I can't share His opinion on them.

BUT, if for some reason I had to guess, I would imagine that He did one of two things - 1) Did the same for them as He did humans or 2) created them no different than other animals. Their death simply ends in nonexistence.

3) So do, some don't. Breaking the law doesn't decide Heaven or Hell, though. God decides that.

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10-11-2012, 10:03 PM
RE: Ensoulment
(08-11-2012 10:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  When does a human get a soul? Why do you think that? On what evidence?

If you believe only from reason, then it is merely your opinion.
If you believe only from scripture, then it is merely someone else's opinion.
A soul is initialized at conception, but I'm not 100% on this. Truth is, I don't really know, nor do I think I'll ever know the answer to that.

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10-11-2012, 10:07 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-11-2012 09:39 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Honestly KC, you only seem to be propping up your god as a horrible monstrosity, chained and prevented from enacting untold horrors on everything by only itself, in a way that allows it to still do so, only slowly and passively...

Perhaps you need to work on your pitch a little bit.
God is capable of doing whatever He wants. In fact, some of His acts are terrifying. But, He only does what He does in accordance to His perfect plan.

And yeah, my pitch may need work, but at least it's honest and Biblically sound.

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10-11-2012, 10:09 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I'm getting the feeling that your god is not the god, but the plan itself, which would seem to constrain it from doing things...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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10-11-2012, 10:11 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-11-2012 09:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 07:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Bum P
Sorry. I don't understand the question.

I feel dumb Sad
Is OK. I reword, or someone else can. Well done for answering the last set of questions. Weirdo Tongue
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10-11-2012, 11:45 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-11-2012 09:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 01:11 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  “Divines never fail to persuade us, that the enormous distance which separates God and man, necessarily renders the conduct of God a mystery to us, and that we have no right to interrogate our master. Is this answer satisfactory? Since my eternal happiness is at stake, have I not a right to examine the conduct of God himself? It is only in hope of happiness that men submit to the authority of a God. A despot, to whom men submit only through fear, a master, whom they cannot interrogate, a sovereign totally inaccessible, can never merit the homage of intelligent beings. If the conduct of God is a mystery, it is not made for us. Man can neither adore, admire, respect, nor imitate conduct, in which every thing is inconceivable, or, of which he can often form only revolting ideas; unless it is pretended, that we ought to adore every thing of which we are forced to be ignorant, and that every thing, which we do not know, becomes for that reason an object of admiration. Divines! You never cease telling us, that the designs of God are impenetrable; that his ways are not our ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts; that it is absurd to complain of his administration, of the motives and springs of which we are totally ignorant; that it is presumption to tax his judgments with injustice, because we cannot comprehend them. But when you speak in this strain, do you not perceive, that you destroy with your own hands all your profound systems, whose only end is to explain to us the ways of the divinity, which, you say, are impenetrable? Have you penetrated his judgments, his ways, his designs? You dare not assert it, and though you reason about them without end, you do not comprehend them any more than we do. If, by chance, you know the plan of God, which you wish us to admire, while most people find it so little worthy of a just, good, intelligent, and reasonable being, no longer say, this plan is impenetrable. If you are as ignorant of it as we are, have some indulgence for those who ingenuously confess, they comprehend nothing in it, or that they see in it nothing divine. Cease to persecute for opinions, of which you understand nothing yourselves; cease to defame each other for dreams and conjectures, which every thing seems to contradict. Talk to us of things intelligible and really useful to men; and no longer talk to us of the impenetrable ways of God, about which you only stammer and contradict yourselves.

By continually speaking of the immense depths of divine wisdom, forbidding us to sound them, saying it is insolence to cite God before the tribunal of our feeble reason, making it a crime to judge our master, divines teach us nothing but the embarrassment they are in, when it is required to account for the conduct of a God, whose conduct they think marvelous only because they are utterly incapable of comprehending it themselves.”

Excerpt From: Paul Henri Thiry Baron D'Holbach. “Good Sense.”


What do you think of this, KC? I thought it was good enough for me to ask your opinion.
This argument is so trite.

You can question God's right to sovereignty. If you find that God is able to be judged, then He is not God because He is not sovereign - thus eliminating the argument all together. This argument redefines sovereignty and makes the word impotent.

The very fact that God is sovereign eliminates the ability to be judged. God is autonomous .

If you accept His sovereignty, then you accept the fact that judging Him is impossible.

I've expressed this frustration before - a non-theists that tries to disprove theology with theology. It's ridiculous. If you are talking about the Christian God in the terms of reality, you can't redefine parts of His nature and be like, "Ahh got ya now."

You can't question the Christians God's sovereignty because He is sovereign. You can question the reality of the Christian God or question how He can be sovereign and allow bad things to happen, but you cannot point out that He's suppose to be sovereign and then question His acts of sovereignty.

If He is sovereign, then yes, we can NEVER understand Him fully. It's arrogant and intellectually dishonest to question God sovereignty if there is an understanding that God is supposed to be sovereign.
Ah, but by saying God is unjudgable, aren't you Judging Him?

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10-11-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-11-2012 09:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 04:21 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  “You pretend, that God is immutable! What then produces a continual instability in this world, which you make his empire? Is there a state, subject to more frequent and cruel revolutions, than that of this unknown monarch? How can we attribute to an immutable God, sufficiently powerful to give solidity to his works, a government, in which every thing is in continual vicissitude? If I imagine I see a God of uniform character in all the effects favourable to my species, what kind of a God can I see in their continual misfortunes? You tell me, it is our sins, which compel him to punish. I answer, that God, according to yourselves, is then not immutable, since the sins of men force him to change his conduct towards them. Can a being, who is sometimes provoked, and sometimes appeased, be constantly the same?”

Excerpt From: Paul Henri Thiry Baron D'Holbach. “Good Sense.”

I also want your opinion on this as well KC.
Not much to say on this.

He's not addressing my theology. He's addressing Arminianism.
Explain in a way on HOW he is not addressing your theology.

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