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13-12-2011, 08:10 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 04:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 04:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Modern translations are indeed errant - which is why I try to use the earliest and most literal translation as well as referencing the original languages when I study.

And, I should have clarified as a "faith in the Christian God".

I'm told even the originals are errant, although since I don't read Aramaic or Ancient Greek, I have to take that on faith. Wink

I don't see that having faith in the Christian God necessitates belief in an inerrant Bible. It doesn't logically follow. One could be a very devout Christian and understand that the Bible is mythical, allegorical, and non-factual.

Well... the belief that they are either errant or inerrant IS based in faith. Smile So, we're at an impasse with that.

Also, if you want an easy toll with deciphering the original languages go here.

Viewing the Bible as mythical, allegorical, and non-factual starts a slippery slope. Since the Bible says that it is inerrant, we have faith that is true. If if you start saying that it's errant, then what's to say that everything in the Bible is errant... including Christ and His sacrifice... which in turn makes the whole belief system false.

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13-12-2011, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2011 08:37 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 08:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 04:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 04:11 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Modern translations are indeed errant - which is why I try to use the earliest and most literal translation as well as referencing the original languages when I study.

And, I should have clarified as a "faith in the Christian God".

I'm told even the originals are errant, although since I don't read Aramaic or Ancient Greek, I have to take that on faith. Wink

I don't see that having faith in the Christian God necessitates belief in an inerrant Bible. It doesn't logically follow. One could be a very devout Christian and understand that the Bible is mythical, allegorical, and non-factual.

Well... the belief that they are either errant or inerrant IS based in faith. Smile So, we're at an impasse with that.

Also, if you want an easy toll with deciphering the original languages go here.

Viewing the Bible as mythical, allegorical, and non-factual starts a slippery slope. Since the Bible says that it is inerrant, we have faith that is true. If if you start saying that it's errant, then what's to say that everything in the Bible is errant... including Christ and His sacrifice... which in turn makes the whole belief system false.

Oooohhhh .... the Chosen One sees the slippery slope. If you just hang out at the top saying "Oh my, oh dear me, that slope sure looks slippery", you're gonna miss out on one hell of a ride, brother. ... but whatever, we got a wild ass party waiting for you at the bottom if you ever grow a sack and pick up a sled.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-12-2011, 08:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 08:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Viewing the Bible as mythical, allegorical, and non-factual starts a slippery slope. Since the Bible says that it is inerrant, we have faith that is true. If if you start saying that it's errant, then what's to say that everything in the Bible is errant... including Christ and His sacrifice... which in turn makes the whole belief system false.

I'm assuming you're referring to 2 Timothy 3:16:
Quote:16 All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness;

Even as a Christian, I always felt this was weak. You're relying on the Bible to tell you that it is inerrant. Circular reasoning isn't reasoning at all.

There is also a MAJOR problem in the fact that 2 Timothy wasn't "scripture" when it was written. In fact, there wasn't any NT "scripture" when it was written. So, even if this verse were to be true, it would only be true of the OT. But if it's true of the OT, then why aren't we following Levitical Law, etc.?

Slippery slope, to be sure. But slippery in the opposite direction to what you meant.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-12-2011, 09:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.

Also, no I don't. There isn't an aspect in my life that I base my decisions on the concept of faith, but, then again, I do have faith that God has preordained everything in my life including me typing this response; so, I guess, I base my entire existence on faith.

Quote:Oh yeah, I know these facts. And, I know it's like the "whisper game". Logically, it doesn't add up. I acknowledge this. I accept this. However, my faith in an all powerful God, to me, holds more weight, and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Okay... I'm curious: do you have any reasons for your religious beliefs other than faith? Because that's the part that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around o.0 I just don't understand how somebody can accept anything on faith alone.

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13-12-2011, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2011 10:26 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 09:19 PM)SecularStudent Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.

Also, no I don't. There isn't an aspect in my life that I base my decisions on the concept of faith, but, then again, I do have faith that God has preordained everything in my life including me typing this response; so, I guess, I base my entire existence on faith.

Quote:Oh yeah, I know these facts. And, I know it's like the "whisper game". Logically, it doesn't add up. I acknowledge this. I accept this. However, my faith in an all powerful God, to me, holds more weight, and I have faith that His instructions in the Bible are inerrant.

Okay... I'm curious: do you have any reasons for your religious beliefs other than faith? Because that's the part that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around o.0 I just don't understand how somebody can accept anything on faith alone.

Here and here I go into great detail about my beliefs. I don't expect you to have followed the threads, but they are pretty good reads.

In short, my conversion was so earth-shattering for me, that it presented evidence that was more than faith alone. I was the evidence - my change.

*On an unrelated note, I just touched my eye after eating a habanero pepper. My eye is on fire.*
(13-12-2011 07:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 08:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 06:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-12-2011 01:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  ...
1. There is life after death, specifically (in GirlyMan's useful terminology) postmortem preservation of identity.
2. Hell is a real place of eternal torment.
3. The vast majority of humanity are destined to hell.

1) Preservation of earthly identity is still questionable. I'm leaning to more not.
2) Yes
3) Yes

Then why the fuck would I even give a shit either way? Tain't gonna be me that's suffering or hallelujahing. ... I'll reiterate my earlier observation, I ain't seeing much practical difference between a Calvinist and a nihilist.

Christian Soldier y u no get better knee armor?

Non-theologically speaking - hope.

I used to be a Christian like you, then I took an arrow in the knee.

Dude, you and Buddy Christ crack me up.

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13-12-2011, 10:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 10:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.
-and-
In short, my conversion was so earth-shattering for me, that it presented evidence that was more than faith alone. I was the evidence - my change.

OK, but you ought to seriously consider that you are experiencing a delusion.
The migraines are worrisome.
Just sayin'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-12-2011, 10:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 10:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 10:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.
-and-
In short, my conversion was so earth-shattering for me, that it presented evidence that was more than faith alone. I was the evidence - my change.

OK, but you ought to seriously consider that you are experiencing a delusion.
The migraines are worrisome.
Just sayin'.

Now, Chas. Let's not assume it's organic brain damage. You know my story...I was deluded deeper than the Kid for a long time and I didn't have migraines. Well, I did have to go to therapy three times a week...but no migraines!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-12-2011, 10:45 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 10:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 10:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.
-and-
In short, my conversion was so earth-shattering for me, that it presented evidence that was more than faith alone. I was the evidence - my change.

OK, but you ought to seriously consider that you are experiencing a delusion.
The migraines are worrisome.
Just sayin'.

But the migraines were before and after my conversion. That and the fact that migraines don't cause delusions.

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13-12-2011, 10:58 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 10:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But the migraines were before and after my conversion. That and the fact that migraines don't cause delusions.

So you've stipulated your delusions are caused by something else. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-12-2011, 11:09 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(13-12-2011 10:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 10:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-12-2011 10:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, Chas asked the exact same thing.

I base it on what I guided to believe after my conversion. If I have faith that God chose me salvation, then I have faith that God will lead me to truth through the Bible. I have no other evidence than that.
-and-
In short, my conversion was so earth-shattering for me, that it presented evidence that was more than faith alone. I was the evidence - my change.

OK, but you ought to seriously consider that you are experiencing a delusion.
The migraines are worrisome.
Just sayin'.

But the migraines were before and after my conversion. That and the fact that migraines don't cause delusions.

Not so fast there, KC.
Migraine madness: recurrent psychosis after migraine
Also, some medications, including ones for migraines, can cause delusions.
And there is delusional disorder.

I'll say no more on this - don't want to flog a dead horse.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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