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21-11-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-11-2012 04:30 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you think that everyone who lived before John Calvin got it (= Bible interpretation) wrong? If so, why do you think that is?

(Take the question for what it is. My only motivation is curiosity.)
Calvinism was the common interpretation. It wasn't until Pelagius and Augustine that the freewill / predestination debate entered the picture.

Calvinism far predates John Calvin. It's just named after him because he was the major player for predestination during the Reformation.

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21-11-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-11-2012 08:30 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 03:49 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If sin didn't affect some and only affect others, there would be a need for salvation or redemption. If sin only affects the elect, then they are redeemed. If it doesn't touch the non-elect, then they are perfect and without sin; thus redeemed. This would remove Christ's purpose.

God also states that sin affect the entire world.


Yes it does. Suffering is a side effect of sin. If sin happens, suffering is inevitable.


Yes, He is responsible for everything. Again, the plan is infinite, and the plan of Christ's redemption always was. Hardships are a result of the sin. All of it is centered around Christ's purpose.
You are missing the point. Can God make sin, but not suffering? If he can, then he should have.
Yes, He can.

But, like I said, God is also a God of order.

If God created sin, sin must have consequences, or its purpose would be moot.

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21-11-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-11-2012 05:41 AM)dj-hato Wrote:  how can you be religious in light of how much the bible had to revise in light of scientific discovery
the church has been proven wrong on every thing thus far and the things that remain are gaps in human knowledge
(im just curious how you can hold to a belief in light of all that )

and also what is your take on evolution are you a creationists
As Vosur said, I am an Evolutionary Creationist.

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21-11-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Do I get a "biblical alignment" at the chiropractor, or somewhere else ? Is it like a "rack" in Medieval times ? Will it make me taller ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-11-2012, 11:26 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That is essentially what I'm saying. God does implant that into His believers. That's what I'm saying when I say it's a "gift". Only the ones that have been given faith can have faith.
If all-powerful god gives you faith, how can it be possible to lose it? I mean, if its "a gift" it should be impossible or at least very hard to lose, like people who are born geniuses and other kind of things people may refer to as to be "gifted".

There are people who seems to have lots of faith and in short time stop believing. I've seen that and there are for sure lots of similar cases out there.

if your faith can move mountains it should be able to withstand criticism
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21-11-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-11-2012 01:16 PM)Styrofoam02 Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 10:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) God is autonomous. His justice is His own. According to human standards, though, no... He does not treat everyone equally.

2) Like I said, He is not just in that way. The non-elect were created in accordance to sin - sin had to occur; therefore, there had to be non-elect. This fulfills Christ's purpose.

3) To me, yes. If God is truly omnipotence, omniscient, and omnipresent, then I could never understand or comprehend the entire scope of His plan. I could only judge a small portion of what I know and see, so this makes me unqualified in judging Him. Since He is infinite, He is worthy of praise, as nothing greater could ever be.
1) You don't see this as a cop out? Did God not write morality on our hearts? Why then, does the morality he writes on our hearts in regards to fairness and Justice contradict his very own morality?

2) Do you not see this as just a way to pat yourself on the spiritual back? "I am better than you are because I am of the elect." And as a continuation of number 1, how can you bring this sense of moral justice in your own life into alignment with God's sense of justice? If God tells you to love your neighbor as yourself, but then creates ETERNAL BEINGS for no other purpose than to be tortured for eternity, do you not see an inherent contradiction there?

3) If a truly omnipotent god existed as you suggest, why did his plan include the presence of evil? Why, if he is omniscient did he create Satan to begin with, knowing full well that he would corrupt the rest of his creation and force him to come to earth as a human being and die? To go one step further, Why have this Rube Goldberg machine type plan when a supposedly all powerful and all knowing god could just create it and skip it? You say that sin was always in God's plan, but if God hates sin and cannot be in the presence of sin, Why create sin to begin with?
1) No. God did not directly give us morality. Morality is basic, primitive evolutionary trait handed down generations after generations. It is based on selfishness and empathy. Society also affects morality. This type of morality is amoral - neither good or bad.

With the knowledge of good and evil, we are able to understand how selfishness and empathy can positively or negatively affect others. We are then able to deny selfishness and embrace empathy because these traits are no longer amoral; they now hold an immoral or moral weight to them.

2) It's not an inherent contradiction. Without sin, there would be no perceived morality. Without consequences for sin, there would be no sin. We have a moral obligation because we were given a moral standard after God imparted His image upon us. God's standards for us aren't His standards. In the same way that students have rules that aren't applicable to the teacher but are created by the teacher.

3) The Bible never says that God can't be in the presence of sin. That is made up. God does hate sin, but He is still the author of it. He doesn't have to love everything He created. Everything He created is "good" in a sense that it serves a purpose.

His plan always was. Sin always was. Why? I can't answer that. I'm the not the mind of God.

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21-11-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
A lot of the debates here seem to center on the validity of the bible and the view that it is the claimed word of God, I agree that there are too many inaccurate statements in it for it all to be taken literally though have to wonder does dismissing part of it justify dismissing it all.

Has anyone considered that there may be parts of the bible that were written by man to deliberately deceive. I'm not saying this is correct though it just seems that if you were trying to get people to fall away from the faith then altering or adding to that book in a way that would cause people to doubt the rest of it would be a good way to do it.
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21-11-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 11:26 AM)SomeOne Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That is essentially what I'm saying. God does implant that into His believers. That's what I'm saying when I say it's a "gift". Only the ones that have been given faith can have faith.
If all-powerful god gives you faith, how can it be possible to lose it? I mean, if its "a gift" it should be impossible or at least very hard to lose, like people who are born geniuses and other kind of things people may refer to as to be "gifted".

There are people who seems to have lots of faith and in short time stop believing. I've seen that and there are for sure lots of similar cases out there.
Pretty much a "No True Scotsman" approach.

Scripture states that nothing can snatch you from the hand of God; therefore, those that do lose faith never had the gift of faith to begin with. They only thought they did... even believed they did... but never really had it.

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21-11-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 11:38 AM)Rum Wrote:  A lot of the debates here seem to center on the validity of the bible and the view that it is the claimed word of God, I agree that there are too many inaccurate statements in it for it all to be taken literally though have to wonder does dismissing part of it justify dismissing it all.

Has anyone considered that there may be parts of the bible that were written by man to deliberately deceive. I'm not saying this is correct though it just seems that if you were trying to get people to fall away from the faith then altering or adding to that book in a way that would cause people to doubt the rest of it would be a good way to do it.
This is not only a possibility but a reality. Examples of this would be Enoch and Assumption of Moses.

As far as the current Bible goes, no... I believe it is inspired.

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21-11-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
There are far to many contradictions for it to be inspired kingchosen how do you reconcile the bible stating two different facts which should you take to be true ?

And which current bible as there are many versions though they are all pretty much just translations of those original works.

It is one of those cases where disproving the bible doesn't disprove God but trying to reconcile what information is still valid in a book that is obviously not the complete truth that Christians are taught is difficult, even considering that if you accept that it has been altered then how is anyone to know what is altered and what is still true.
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