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21-11-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 12:59 PM)Rum Wrote:  EXO 33:11, And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
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EXO 33:18, And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. ... 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

There is one that is repeated a few times in the bible i believe john also states no one hath seen the lord
In verse 33:11 it means to be in the presence of or to be standing before (in front of). The word is pā·nîm

In verse 20 it literally means "face". The word is pā·nāy;
The above was probably one I could have answered myself with simply saying one was talking about God the father and the other God the son, I have been going through some of those contradictions and a lot do seem to be answerable given a little thought though some are not so easily explained
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21-11-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 01:40 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 01:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay, maybe I'm confused at to what you're asking as far as the sin stuff goes. Could you reask this?

Also, no, as I told Rum, the teachings of the Bible aren't inaccurate... and neither are the words of the Bible. All of that is accurate and inspired. This had to be accurate in order for instructions to be conveyed. An afterthought is the science... science in conveyed in terms as the people understood it. It is of no relevance to what is being taught.
Can God make sin effect only the Sinners, thus removing the needless suffering, and pain and misery that good, innocent(of this sin in particular) people must suffer because of another person's actions?

Like if a person stole from another person, couldn't God reimburse what got stolen, thus removing the suffering of the family in which the things got stolen from? Then the sinner, if he does not repent( because God planned him not to) can go to hell because he committed the sin and that is HIS punishment for it? That seems like a better way to go at it then let innocents suffer the crimes of the guilty.
Yeah, I was completely off in my understanding of what you were asking.

Good question, actually.

And yeah, I suppose that is a possibility (meaning God could reconcile all wrongs done to an innocent).

But, the Bible does say that sin affects all of creation. So, if sin affects everything and if order must be retained, while consequences being the byproduct of sin, then it would make sense that no one is immune and no one can escape consequences. Sometimes those consequences affect the innocent, but sin has no "bullseye" so to speak. It affects anything and everything, regardless of status.

I think the deeper question to what you're asking is why isn't God omni-benevolent to His elect? And, I think that goes back to what I was saying about how the elect needed to be redeemed thus needing sin. In turn, because they have sin, they still have the consequences of sin, but it is atoned for and they are redeemed.

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21-11-2012, 01:59 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 01:46 PM)Rum Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In verse 33:11 it means to be in the presence of or to be standing before (in front of). The word is pā·nîm

In verse 20 it literally means "face". The word is pā·nāy;
The above was probably one I could have answered myself with simply saying one was talking about God the father and the other God the son, I have been going through some of those contradictions and a lot do seem to be answerable given a little thought though some are not so easily explained
Yeah, like I said, many of the "contradictions" are people nitpicking the superficial. Most of it can be easily explained; however, I would like to know which can't be easily explained.

Those are the ones I would like to address.

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21-11-2012, 02:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That is essentially what I'm saying. God does implant that into His believers. That's what I'm saying when I say it's a "gift". Only the ones that have been given faith can have faith.

Still haven't established this as god. Am I not articulating properly? It has been known to happen.


(21-11-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Oh, anything is possible. However, my personal evidence points me towards there being a Christian God. But, I can never be sure of anything because I'm not omniscient. This is where faith comes into play... and the giving of faith to me by God. Faith fills the gaps of certainty and empirical evidence / knowledge.

Beginning to sound like Deus Ex Machina. I still have zero reason not to believe this is all in your head. And, neither do you (as far as I can tell).

(21-11-2012 11:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I actually did. I didn't want to believe that something supernatural happened. I considered all options, and through my evidence, I came to a conclusion.


I find it highly unlikely that you exhausted all alternative explanations. You may have exhausted all alternative explanations you were capable of imagining alone. Are you a physicist? A biologist? A psychologist or psychiatrist? Did you consult anyone else? There are folks out there with knowledge of more options than you could have imagined on your own. Can you elaborate on the process you went through? How long did it take? Which domains of human knowledge did you tap (please don't just say "all of them")?

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21-11-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 02:37 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Still haven't established this as god. Am I not articulating properly? It has been known to happen.

No, I get what you're saying. The point I'm making is if this being is all powerful, all knowing, and all present - perfect - then how is He not God?


Quote:Beginning to sound like Deus Ex Machina. I still have zero reason not to believe this is all in your head. And, neither do you (as far as I can tell).

I know it wasn't in my head... how, because I know myself and I know what I experienced. And, no... I don't have hard evidence to prove it and never claimed I did.

Quote:I find it highly unlikely that you exhausted all alternative explanations. You may have exhausted all alternative explanations you were capable of imagining alone. Are you a physicist? A biologist? A psychologist or psychiatrist? Did you consult anyone else? There are folks out there with knowledge of more options than you could have imagined on your own. Can you elaborate on the process you went through? How long did it take? Which domains of human knowledge did you tap (please don't just say "all of them")?

1) A biology professor
2) Psychologist
3) Hypnotist
4) Family Doctor
5) College and Career pastor
6) 2 neurologists
7) My brother (pastor)

I was also put on the gamut of different anti-depressants to try and help deal with my sudden change. When I realized I wasn't depressed (realized my change was due to God), I stopped taking them because 1) they didn't affect me and 2) I wasn't depressed.

All of this in the course of about 4 or 5 months.

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21-11-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 01:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 01:40 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Can God make sin effect only the Sinners, thus removing the needless suffering, and pain and misery that good, innocent(of this sin in particular) people must suffer because of another person's actions?

Like if a person stole from another person, couldn't God reimburse what got stolen, thus removing the suffering of the family in which the things got stolen from? Then the sinner, if he does not repent( because God planned him not to) can go to hell because he committed the sin and that is HIS punishment for it? That seems like a better way to go at it then let innocents suffer the crimes of the guilty.
But, the Bible does say that sin affects all of creation.



Not to nit-pick again or anything but, I just have to say, that one sentence is only enforcing my "Your god is an abomination." idea.

Because god forced a rib-woman to eat a fruit, simply because they were *forced* to be curios about it. But apparently god loved this fruit more than anything in the entire universe and punished all man kind of the two humans doing exactly what he ordered by eating the much loved fruit.

Now that enforced and pointless "sin" affects all of creation, right?

So... now all the other species throughout the universe that will never have anything to do with our species ever have to suffer for it (as it affects all of creation, in which these highly likely, but purely hypothetical species reside)

Once again dude, you need to work on your pitch.

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21-11-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 03:27 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 01:57 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, the Bible does say that sin affects all of creation.



Not to nit-pick again or anything but, I just have to say, that one sentence is only enforcing my "Your god is an abomination." idea.

Because god forced a rib-woman to eat a fruit, simply because they were *forced* to be curios about it. But apparently god loved this fruit more than anything in the entire universe and punished all man kind of the two humans doing exactly what he ordered by eating the much loved fruit.

Now that enforced and pointless "sin" affects all of creation, right?

So... now all the other species throughout the universe that will never have anything to do with our species ever have to suffer for it (as it affects all of creation, in which these highly likely, but purely hypothetical species reside)

Once again dude, you need to work on your pitch.
That's under the assumption of original sin (sin is passed down to us because of Adam's sin). I don't believe in original sin.

Sin was always there... we eventually acted upon it. It's not passed down since sin was created from the beginning. Sin never not existed.

Does that clear up my position a bit more?

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21-11-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Surprisingly, yes, that does make a little more sense.

So, another question, if you will indulge my ignorance further for a minute:
Sin always existed, and (I assume) you believe god always existed, so does that mean god could be effected by sin?

Now, I know that god is supposed to be perfect and such, but if he cannot learn from vices that he cannot have (it cannot adapt), that does not paint the picture of perfection... or wisdom

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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21-11-2012, 03:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No, I get what you're saying. The point I'm making is if this being is all powerful, all knowing, and all present - perfect - then how is He not God?


I think we are almost at a level of understanding. You haven't established that the sentience is all *anything*. The only thing you can derive from your situation, is that the entity was powerful enough to convince you of something and make you feel something unexpected. It made you feel something you'd never felt before. Your inability to accept that these feelings might, in fact, come directly from your own psyche are basically an argument from incredulity. But, even if it were external, you've still placed your trust in something with very little in the way of what most people would require to earn their trust. Just because you feel like it's god talking to you, doesn't mean it's god. So far, you haven't convinced me you even really know what it is. You just seem to have an idea, formulated by you, based partially on your own perceptions, and mostly on past ideas of this feeling experienced by other humans in the past. All of which could be completely wrong.



(21-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I know it wasn't in my head... how, because I know myself and I know what I experienced. And, no... I don't have hard evidence to prove it and never claimed I did.

I am not convinced you completely know what you experienced. Nor am I completely convinced you know yourself, or what your mind is capable of. Also, I'm not looking for hard evidence. I'm looking for *all* the evidence you have. I have yet to be convinced we've discussed it all, or that all of it is even posted in these forums. There may be things you have forgotten. Things others didn't think to ask. Things you didn't think to ask. After all, you are but human, are you not?


(21-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) A biology professor
2) Psychologist
3) Hypnotist
4) Family Doctor
5) College and Career pastor
6) 2 neurologists
7) My brother (pastor)

Now, this request may exceed propriety. Forgive me, but my curiosity is now invested. Smile Could you please state each proposed alternative explanation you discussed or considered alone, and then for each state the refutations which caused you to dismiss them? I realize its a lot to ask for, but this is part of your process that remains a mystery to me. Take your time with this one. Maybe we can tackle them one at a time?

(21-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I was also put on the gamut of different anti-depressants to try and help deal with my sudden change.

Which drugs, specifically? I've taken a few myself in the past. I can attest to unexpected psuedo-psychotic side effects of some.

(21-11-2012 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  All of this in the course of about 4 or 5 months.

Seems insufficient to me for full analysis, but I agree that's arbitrary. It had to be an exhausting process, no? Must have been very taxing, mentally and emotionally?

BTW - Thank you for your patience with me. It is much appreciated. If you feel I dig too deeply just let me know. I don't want to offend.

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21-11-2012, 03:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(21-11-2012 03:43 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Surprisingly, yes, that does make a little more sense.

So, another question, if you will indulge my ignorance further for a minute:
Sin always existed, and (I assume) you believe god always existed, so does that mean god could be effected by sin?

Now, I know that god is supposed to be perfect and such, but if he cannot learn from vices that he cannot have (it cannot adapt), that does not paint the picture of perfection... or wisdom
Remember God is autonomous. Our sins are sins assigned by Him via the knowledge of good and evil. So sins are deemed sins by God.

Even so, sin exists "because of". It doesn't exists in God. Sin exists because of God's plan, both of which have no beginning because of God's omniscience.

Adaption isn't necessary for God... if we're talking about true omnipotence. There would be no need to adapt. See, God doesn't need to "learn" from sin because when sin is held to God's autonomous standard it isn't sin. It's simply "good" (in accordance to His plan).

His plan required for something to be the cause for a need for redemption (sin), then He bestowed His image upon us which made us aware of good and evil; thus, capable of sin.

Let me know if I need to clarify.

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