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24-11-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-11-2012 08:13 PM)Styrofoam02 Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 11:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  No.

God gave us morality through evolution. Because He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, we know what is right and wrong. Morality isn't evil or good... everything is amoral... until we are given the knowledge of good and evil. Then we can do good and evil... but, since good and evil is relative, it's up to God to interpret amoral actions into moral or immoral actions.

Even when animals portray "morality" it's only because we perceive, under human standards, as moral or immoral. We cannot force our relative morality onto anything. When mice help other mice stuck in a maze; bring them food or whatever; we perceive that as the mouse doing "good" or being moral. But why? Because that's how we perceive those actions. Did the mouse have good intentions? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it was just the mouse's evolution kicking in and helping its species survive.

So, actions are amoral. We assign morals to these actions. Romans is saying that God has given us the understanding of what these actions are... they are no longer amoral; but immoral or moral.


I explain this above. Animals show empathy and selfishness, but their actions are neither moral or immoral - they are amoral.


I have asked "why". This is why I don't have an answer for it. It's the same reason why I don't know what you're thinking right now. I'm not you. I don't know your thoughts or your plans. So, I can't answer that question, but it doesn't have anything to do with me not asking "why".

I've gone into great detail about sin before, but I'll touch on it again. This is God's plan... His world... His rules. Perception is the key. You may perceive Him as a sadist, and you wouldn't be wrong. Based on your information and understanding, that would be a correct interpretation. I have a different understanding, so my perception is different.

Also, what you describe as "evil" is only evil according to your morality. Your opinion is crafted by your morality... and morality, again, is relative. Your example of the dogs isn't quite sufficient simply because you don't know the whole story. What if the breeder is actually torturing them to analyze their brain patterns in order to construct cybernetic dogs of the future that will be used in police task forces, rescues, and/or life long companions. Now, yes, this is an outrageous example, but the situation changes once you get the whole picture; likewise, something that you could have never previously perceived (cybernetic dogs) suddenly changes what you understand.

This is God. Infinite knowledge and infinite understanding. We don't know His plan and why His plan involves death and hell and such... but, it is necessary for His plan.

It's really just the acceptance that God is infinite. Once that happens, you have to accept that anything He does is without contestation simply because your knowledge and understanding isn't even measurable next to infinity. The only way to get this is faith. The only way to get faith is through God.
so the only way to believe in god is to believe in god. That makes so much sense. /sarcasm

God gave us the knowledge of good and evil....through the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for which eating it condemned us to hell. That. makes. so. much. sense.

"sin has always existed. God has always existed." So, did God create sin? if so, at what point? If god created sin, then it wasn't "always" That. makes. sense.

"God has infinite understanding" Apparently he doesn't. Otherwise, he'd understand why I don't believe in him, and he wouldn't banish me to a complete and utter eternity for my non-belief. Because this. makes. sense.

You know what else makes sense? That your god is made up. This actually DOES make sense.
For whom and for what purpose?

Did I miss the memo where I was trying to convince you of God?

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24-11-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I would like to hear what your belief on this is. Must we always forgive? In all situations? Is that commanded by the god you believe in?
How about when you have tried...when you have turned the other cheek time and time again must you continue to no matter who it is or how long it goes on or how much it damages you?

Curious as to the teachings on that subject.

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24-11-2012, 09:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-11-2012 08:24 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I would like to hear what your belief on this is. Must we always forgive? In all situations? Is that commanded by the god you believe in?
How about when you have tried...when you have turned the other cheek time and time again must you continue to no matter who it is or how long it goes on or how much it damages you?

Curious as to the teachings on that subject.
The Bible, as well as Jesus, clearly state to forgive the repentive.

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24-11-2012, 10:07 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-11-2012 09:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 08:24 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I would like to hear what your belief on this is. Must we always forgive? In all situations? Is that commanded by the god you believe in?
How about when you have tried...when you have turned the other cheek time and time again must you continue to no matter who it is or how long it goes on or how much it damages you?

Curious as to the teachings on that subject.
The Bible, as well as Jesus, clearly state to forgive the repentive.


The freakin' Bible doesn't clearly say anything. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-11-2012, 10:09 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
The 'repentive'...thank you, that's the key to my situation.

Appreciate the response!

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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25-11-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:
Quote:Actually, no.

I'm a Calvinist.

God chooses salvation and damnation. A person can't choose to be a murderer and then repent on his deathbed and go to heaven.

God already chose everyone who is going to heaven and going to hell. Nothing can change that.
Same
as how some people buy some cars just for show. They don't want to fuck
up the car; they set it aside, gathering dust, not letting it be used
the way it was built to be used. Instead they are preserving it. And
nothing can change it. The owner decides what happens to it, no one
else.
--------------------------------------------------

So this is from the thread that Egor did. Figure it's best not to derail the thread anymore than it already is.

This is what I came up with in trying to understand Calvanist viewpoints on how God chooses salvation and damnation, how he chose all those who are going to heaven, and all those who are going to hell. If there is anything dissimilar to Calvanist beliefs and what put forth as my simile and you feel like correcting my understanding, feel free.

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25-11-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Reposted this from egors thread to prevent derailment.

(25-11-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Actually, no.

I'm a Calvinist.

God chooses salvation and damnation. A person can't choose to be a murderer and then repent on his deathbed and go to heaven.

God already chose everyone who is going to heaven and going to hell. Nothing can change that.

And you still worship it? A god that will just as easily send a child to suffer in agony for Eternity as it would a mass murderer. For no reason that the child had any control over?

Your god is not a just god. Or a fair or loving god. It intentionally makes people just to suffer in hell. It's cruel.

It is not a being worthy of the worship of any decent human being. It's a monster only deserving of hatred.

Knowing all that how can you still worship it?

Behold the power of the force!
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25-11-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Also reposting from the other thread...
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Quote:(Today 02:21 PM)lucradis Wrote:
Quote:(Today 02:18 PM)tikidoc Wrote: And this is a god that you worship? One who is totally arbitrary, and would allow those who live good and just lives to be punished for eternity? Punished only for not being among the chosen? With all due respect, that's insane.
To be fair it is no more insane than the basic Christian beliefs, or mormon, or jewish, or muslim, or well... I guess what you could say is crazy is all a part of the concept.
Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.
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25-11-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Another question I must ask, KC. Forgive me if this has already been answered on this thread but, well, the thread is over 200 pages and I'm not up to reading it all.

I know I am new here, so I'm hoping this is not out of line to ask, but I am really curious. Why are you here, in this forum? I could understand a Christian coming here who wants to convert people, or to learn more about how non-believers think in order to maybe convert some to their religion.

But as someone who sees themselves as saved, and the rest of us as people who have no say in our destinies, since God has already decided to torture most of us, what is the point? It seems to me that your particular form of Christianity would be very prone to elitism. And I would think the last people you would want to hang with would be a bunch of atheists. Unless you are here because it gives you a feeling of superiority.
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25-11-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I replied in the other thread about the insanity measurement issue faced today.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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