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25-11-2012, 03:07 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 01:22 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
Quote:Same
as how some people buy some cars just for show. They don't want to fuck
up the car; they set it aside, gathering dust, not letting it be used
the way it was built to be used. Instead they are preserving it. And
nothing can change it. The owner decides what happens to it, no one
else.
--------------------------------------------------

So this is from the thread that Egor did. Figure it's best not to derail the thread anymore than it already is.

This is what I came up with in trying to understand Calvanist viewpoints on how God chooses salvation and damnation, how he chose all those who are going to heaven, and all those who are going to hell. If there is anything dissimilar to Calvanist beliefs and what put forth as my simile and you feel like correcting my understanding, feel free.
That's a pretty interesting way of putting it.

Yes, God and only God has a say-so. Each person serves a purpose... whatever that reason may be. The car serves a purpose to the owner... even if we don't what that purpose is and/or it doesn't make sense to us.

The only thing I'll add to this is the understanding that God can't make a mistake. So, in the comparison to the car owner, the owner would always be correct in his decision to do whatever he wishes with his car. Any differing opinion is incorrect and incomparable to the owner's.

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25-11-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 01:29 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Reposted this from egors thread to prevent derailment.

(25-11-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Actually, no.

I'm a Calvinist.

God chooses salvation and damnation. A person can't choose to be a murderer and then repent on his deathbed and go to heaven.

God already chose everyone who is going to heaven and going to hell. Nothing can change that.

And you still worship it? A god that will just as easily send a child to suffer in agony for Eternity as it would a mass murderer. For no reason that the child had any control over?

Your god is not a just god. Or a fair or loving god. It intentionally makes people just to suffer in hell. It's cruel.

It is not a being worthy of the worship of any decent human being. It's a monster only deserving of hatred.

Knowing all that how can you still worship it?
Well, children, babies, the unborn, and the mentally retarded are can of worms all together.

*deep breath*

Okay... the Bible says that men will be judged according to their actions. So, in order to be damned, a person must sin. Sin isn't passed down (remember I don't believe in original sin). Since we are created imperfect, we are created to sin. So, it's not a matter of if we sin, it's a matter of when we sin. Sin is the vehicle that causes damnation.

to be able to sin, we must have the knowledge and understanding of good and evil. With this, we are able to break God's moral standard he assigned to us and fulfill our goal of sinning. Once we have sinned, we have accessed the way to be damned.

Now, this is where atonement comes into play. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all, but only applied to some. This is election. So, it's more of whom God chooses to applied the atonement to. Because all are created imperfect, all will sin; however, God chooses who will get the atonement. The damnation of some is the collateral damage that must happen in order to have redemption. If there was no damnation, there wouldn't need to be redemption. If there was no redemption, then there would be no need for Christ.

(I know this raises a lot of questions about God's plan, but I have beat that horse to death. So, I'll skip it for now. Ask later if you feel inclined.)

Okay, now that we understand the process, let's look at children, babies, the unborn, and the mentally retarded. In order to sin, one must be able to understand the knowledge of good an evil. Creatures are amoral until there is this understanding... once there is this understanding, actions become immoral and moral. This means, objectively, actions are amoral; thus, any being that commits these actions without the understanding of the knowledge of good an evil doesn't commit sin. They are acting amorally.

It is clearly stated that you will be judged on your actions... because this is the canvas for sin. However, if there are no immoral actions to be judged, then you cannot be judged. But, this doesn't negate the natural sin nature of humanity, which needs to be redeemed in order to go to heaven.

Christ's sacrifice redeemed humanity's sin nature. So, this causes those that have not sinned to be redeemed worthy of heaven. So, this is why I believe that children, babies, the unborn, and the mentally retarded that die are elected.

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25-11-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 01:33 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  Also reposting from the other thread...
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Quote:(Today 02:21 PM)lucradis Wrote: To be fair it is no more insane than the basic Christian beliefs, or mormon, or jewish, or muslim, or well... I guess what you could say is crazy is all a part of the concept.
Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.
It's arbitrary from your knowledge, yes... well... from any person's knowledge. I believe that God is omniscient. So, this means that any decision that He makes is the correct one in the most absolute sense. Calvinism removes all power from people and restores omnipotence to God. God cannot be omnipotent and be subjugated to freewill.

In my opinion, Calvinism is the only view that can reconciles God's omnipotence and omniscience.

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25-11-2012, 03:42 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 03:40 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 01:33 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  Also reposting from the other thread...
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.
It's arbitrary from your knowledge, yes... well... from any person's knowledge. I believe that God is omniscient. So, this means that any decision that He makes is the correct one in the most absolute sense. Calvinism removes all power from people and restores omnipotence to God. God cannot be omnipotent and be subjugated to freewill.

In my opinion, Calvinism is the only view that can reconciles God's omnipotence and omniscience.


Actually, the non-existence of God does a more complete job of it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-11-2012, 03:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 01:46 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  Another question I must ask, KC. Forgive me if this has already been answered on this thread but, well, the thread is over 200 pages and I'm not up to reading it all.

I know I am new here, so I'm hoping this is not out of line to ask, but I am really curious. Why are you here, in this forum? I could understand a Christian coming here who wants to convert people, or to learn more about how non-believers think in order to maybe convert some to their religion.

But as someone who sees themselves as saved, and the rest of us as people who have no say in our destinies, since God has already decided to torture most of us, what is the point? It seems to me that your particular form of Christianity would be very prone to elitism. And I would think the last people you would want to hang with would be a bunch of atheists. Unless you are here because it gives you a feeling of superiority.
No problem. Yeah, I don't mind answering questions multiple times.

I came here with a friend and fellow forum member (germanyt) because we were bored at work and this was the only place that wasn't blocked on the filter. He was an atheist, and I just came along for the ride. Soon, I decided I liked the place and stuck around.

You have a lot of preconceived ideas and projections about me, and I find that sad. I try not to pre-judge anyone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're also human, which makes me no better than you.

If anything, my beliefs give me a sense of humility because I know how undeserving I am. I am a very nice, humble person and will associate with anyone who gives me a chance.

First and foremost (and I know the forum team can vouch for this), I see this as a community... and community that I'm a part of. It just so happens that most of the community is made up of atheists. But, this serves no reason why I shouldn't participate.

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25-11-2012, 03:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have major problems with the character and morality of KC's God. God is supposed to be perfect, and a perfect God would therefore be just and fair. This whole concept of "election" of some, and punishment of some who are good people is inherently unfair and unjust.

Also, regarding children, understanding of right and wrong is not something that one just gets suddenly, it is a gradual process as one matures and grows. So at what point does a child become sufficiently mature to qualify for being responsible. My 7 year old has a pretty good idea of right and wrong, but she still has a lot to learn. Is there a magic age? And the mentally retarded, how low must their IQ be to not be fully responsible for the morality of their actions? Again, since we are talking about continuous variables here, does God just have an arbitrary cut-off?
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25-11-2012, 04:10 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 04:13 PM by tikidoc.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 03:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 01:46 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  Another question I must ask, KC. Forgive me if this has already been answered on this thread but, well, the thread is over 200 pages and I'm not up to reading it all.

I know I am new here, so I'm hoping this is not out of line to ask, but I am really curious. Why are you here, in this forum? I could understand a Christian coming here who wants to convert people, or to learn more about how non-believers think in order to maybe convert some to their religion.

But as someone who sees themselves as saved, and the rest of us as people who have no say in our destinies, since God has already decided to torture most of us, what is the point? It seems to me that your particular form of Christianity would be very prone to elitism. And I would think the last people you would want to hang with would be a bunch of atheists. Unless you are here because it gives you a feeling of superiority.
No problem. Yeah, I don't mind answering questions multiple times.

I came here with a friend and fellow forum member (germanyt) because we were bored at work and this was the only place that wasn't blocked on the filter. He was an atheist, and I just came along for the ride. Soon, I decided I liked the place and stuck around.

You have a lot of preconceived ideas and projections about me, and I find that sad. I try not to pre-judge anyone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're also human, which makes me no better than you.

If anything, my beliefs give me a sense of humility because I know how undeserving I am. I am a very nice, humble person and will associate with anyone who gives me a chance.

First and foremost (and I know the forum team can vouch for this), I see this as a community... and community that I'm a part of. It just so happens that most of the community is made up of atheists. But, this serves no reason why I shouldn't participate.
I hope this was clear when I asked the question, I was not criticizing your being in this forum, it just seemed like an odd place for you to WANT hang out. If you look at all of us as damned, it just seems like a strange place for you to be.

As far as preconceived notions about you, I am going by what I read and by the beliefs that you have stated here. After your posts about being a Calvinist, I did a little reading about Calvinism, and the whole concept just seems monumentally unfair to me. You seem to be open and willing to answer questions, and seem like a nice enough person from my limited interactions with you, but the God that you describe impresses me as being immoral and unfair. Does that make you a bad guy? Not necessarily, but it certainly makes me question why you would worship a being like that, and yes, what that says about you. And that is pretty much been the gist of my posts.

As a frame of reference for me, I would classify myself as agnostic, in the 6th of Dawkin's 7 categories, although I prefer the term "secular humanist". I don't believe there is a God, but not saying it is impossible. I also feel that if there is a God worth worshiping, he would judge us based on who we are and how we treated others. If I live a good life and go to hell because I did not believe or was not "chosen", then a God who would condemn me to hell seems pretty petty and prideful to me. I choose not to believe but millions of people are born in places where Christianity is not part of their culture, and therefore God would be leaving all those people out of heaven by nature of where they happened to be born. Not qualities I would be prone to worshiping. Conversely, if I believed in God but treated others like crap, I would not think belief would be a free pass.
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25-11-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:If anything, my beliefs give me a sense of humility because I know how undeserving I am.
Hardly KC. Not to say the you are a bad guy or anything, you can be quite insightful and interesting at times, one of the good guys definitely, however.

The simple fact that you believe that you have a guaranteed front row seat to a fate worse than eternal horror and torment because you were special from the beginning of everything is not humble, it's sickeningly arrogant to make that assumption. The same goes for your stated belief that faith is mandated, your apparent reluctance to require evidence on this one subject is saddening. Any all powerful deity doesn't need a damn thing ever, let alone faith and reverence from that which would not even be atoms in comparison to It especially if It is 'perfect'.
Then again, perfection is a totally individual concept for totally individual interpretation.

I know there is no question here, more of a rant caused by your "What Proof do Atheists Want?" thread comments, and as such if you choose not to address me, keep one thing in mind:

I am saddened that somebody of your intellectual capacity and potential and knowledge (which is far greater than my own it would seem) wastes their time on a war god and its magical human progeny, created for specific political needs by a barely barbarian and highly ignorant culture on the arse end of the earth.
Which is why I don't usually try to challenge you when I am not making jokes at your expense, because I know the mind is incredibly adept in self-deceit, you are convinced because you choose to be convinced whether you realize it or not and until you change that, nothing short of brainwashing will rip you out.


That being said, I conclude this message, knowing full well I am throwing a wet sponge at a titanium armour plate in an attempt to dent it and wish you luck in breaking out.

See you around, FT.

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25-11-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Excellent post, Free Thought, I agree completely.

On a related topic, who is quoted in your signature line? I think it sums up quite well what I was trying to say in the last paragraph of the post above yours.
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25-11-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
My signature is the a quote from Near, a character in the Death Note anime/manga, glad you like it.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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