Ask a Theist!
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 9 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-11-2012, 06:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, children, babies, the unborn, and the mentally retarded are can of worms all together.

*deep breath*

Okay... the Bible says that men will be judged according to their actions. So, in order to be damned, a person must sin. Sin isn't passed down (remember I don't believe in original sin). Since we are created imperfect, we are created to sin. So, it's not a matter of if we sin, it's a matter of when we sin. Sin is the vehicle that causes damnation.

to be able to sin, we must have the knowledge and understanding of good and evil. With this, we are able to break God's moral standard he assigned to us and fulfill our goal of sinning. Once we have sinned, we have accessed the way to be damned.

If we have no free will how can we be capable of breaking gods moral standards? If everything we do is gods will, how can we be capable of sin, when its out of our control?

(25-11-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Now, this is where atonement comes into play. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all, but only applied to some. This is election. So, it's more of whom God chooses to applied the atonement to. Because all are created imperfect, all will sin; however, God chooses who will get the atonement. The damnation of some is the collateral damage that must happen in order to have redemption. If there was no damnation, there wouldn't need to be redemption. If there was no redemption, then there would be no need for Christ.

The whole redemption/damnation thing is meaningless when we have no control over anything. If the decision of whether we are going to heaven or hell was made by a god before any of us existed then the sacrifice Jesus was meant to have made is rendered pointless. and accomplished nothing.

The rest of what you said i think is covered already in my reply.

Behold the power of the force!
[Image: fgYtjtY.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like FSM_scot's post
25-11-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Just wonder how do you avoid the well known problem about free will:
You probably agree simple particles like atoms move according to physical laws and therefore have no free will. Because our body is made of atoms any move it makes can be exactly described with physical laws. Therefore our body just move according to physical laws and have no more free will than a cup of tea. That doesnt seem to match with christian beliefs.

And BTW i like your signature, i hope you re doing equally well in debate with atheists Smile

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 09:16 PM)Troll Wrote:  Just wonder how do you avoid the well known problem about free will:
You probably agree simple particles like atoms move according to physical laws and therefore have no free will. Because our body is made of atoms any move it makes can be exactly described with physical laws. Therefore our body just move according to physical laws and have no more free will than a cup of tea. That doesnt seem to match with christian beliefs.

And BTW i like your signature, i hope you re doing equally well in debate with atheists Smile
KC doesn't believe in Free will.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2012, 10:41 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Dance puppets dance!

'Tis all I can say on that matter.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 03:05 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2012 07:05 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(09-12-2011 03:19 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Do you admit that the 'feeling' of God could simply be wishful and romantic thinking or just the hope of God so that you life has some sort of meaning? I know if can suck to feel like all this is for nothing and I'm convinced that most people who are not religious but still believe in a higher power also feel this way.


I agree with you. I have explained how someone can rationalize the "feeling" of god. It can be very convincing to the believer. After all, we are pattern seeking mammals, aren't we?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 03:54 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  I have major problems with the character and morality of KC's God. God is supposed to be perfect, and a perfect God would therefore be just and fair. This whole concept of "election" of some, and punishment of some who are good people is inherently unfair and unjust.

Also, regarding children, understanding of right and wrong is not something that one just gets suddenly, it is a gradual process as one matures and grows. So at what point does a child become sufficiently mature to qualify for being responsible. My 7 year old has a pretty good idea of right and wrong, but she still has a lot to learn. Is there a magic age? And the mentally retarded, how low must their IQ be to not be fully responsible for the morality of their actions? Again, since we are talking about continuous variables here, does God just have an arbitrary cut-off?
Why must perfection be just and fair?

People serve a purpose.

Back to the children, mentally retarded, etc...

I don't know if there is a magic number... that is all relative to the person's understanding.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 04:29 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
Quote:If anything, my beliefs give me a sense of humility because I know how undeserving I am.
Hardly KC. Not to say the you are a bad guy or anything, you can be quite insightful and interesting at times, one of the good guys definitely, however.

The simple fact that you believe that you have a guaranteed front row seat to a fate worse than eternal horror and torment because you were special from the beginning of everything is not humble, it's sickeningly arrogant to make that assumption. The same goes for your stated belief that faith is mandated, your apparent reluctance to require evidence on this one subject is saddening. Any all powerful deity doesn't need a damn thing ever, let alone faith and reverence from that which would not even be atoms in comparison to It especially if It is 'perfect'.
Then again, perfection is a totally individual concept for totally individual interpretation.

I know there is no question here, more of a rant caused by your "What Proof do Atheists Want?" thread comments, and as such if you choose not to address me, keep one thing in mind:

I am saddened that somebody of your intellectual capacity and potential and knowledge (which is far greater than my own it would seem) wastes their time on a war god and its magical human progeny, created for specific political needs by a barely barbarian and highly ignorant culture on the arse end of the earth.
Which is why I don't usually try to challenge you when I am not making jokes at your expense, because I know the mind is incredibly adept in self-deceit, you are convinced because you choose to be convinced whether you realize it or not and until you change that, nothing short of brainwashing will rip you out.


That being said, I conclude this message, knowing full well I am throwing a wet sponge at a titanium armour plate in an attempt to dent it and wish you luck in breaking out.

See you around, FT.
Not sure what kind of response you want from me.

I mean, I understand your position... and the point of your rant... just don't know what kind of response you want.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 10:05 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 06:19 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  If we have no free will how can we be capable of breaking gods moral standards? If everything we do is gods will, how can we be capable of sin, when its out of our control?

We don't have freewill. But again, God is a God of order, and this the process He set up. We are capable of sin because of the process that God created. Yes, it's out of our control, but God mandates our sin in order to keep order.

Make sense?

Quote:The whole redemption/damnation thing is meaningless when we have no control over anything. If the decision of whether we are going to heaven or hell was made by a god before any of us existed then the sacrifice Jesus was meant to have made is rendered pointless. and accomplished nothing.

The rest of what you said i think is covered already in my reply.

Like I addressed early in this thread, the plan was infinite in existence... the decision for elect was because of Christ's sacrifice... but all of this was always planned. There is a cause and effect; however, they parallel each other in existence because they are both infinite.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 10:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(26-11-2012 09:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 03:54 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  I have major problems with the character and morality of KC's God. God is supposed to be perfect, and a perfect God would therefore be just and fair. This whole concept of "election" of some, and punishment of some who are good people is inherently unfair and unjust.

Also, regarding children, understanding of right and wrong is not something that one just gets suddenly, it is a gradual process as one matures and grows. So at what point does a child become sufficiently mature to qualify for being responsible. My 7 year old has a pretty good idea of right and wrong, but she still has a lot to learn. Is there a magic age? And the mentally retarded, how low must their IQ be to not be fully responsible for the morality of their actions? Again, since we are talking about continuous variables here, does God just have an arbitrary cut-off?
Why must perfection be just and fair?

People serve a purpose.

Back to the children, mentally retarded, etc...

I don't know if there is a magic number... that is all relative to the person's understanding.
Because perfection means without flaw. Something that is unjust is flawed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-11-2012, 10:12 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(25-11-2012 09:16 PM)Troll Wrote:  Just wonder how do you avoid the well known problem about free will:
You probably agree simple particles like atoms move according to physical laws and therefore have no free will. Because our body is made of atoms any move it makes can be exactly described with physical laws. Therefore our body just move according to physical laws and have no more free will than a cup of tea. That doesnt seem to match with christian beliefs.

And BTW i like your signature, i hope you re doing equally well in debate with atheists Smile
As A2 said, I do not believe in freewill.

And thank you, I love my sig too. Big Grin

I don't think I'll ever change it again.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: