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11-12-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-12-2012 03:25 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  And what exactly is that purpose? Without the ability to choose to sin or not, then there is no purpose for its existence.

Because in order for Christ to be able to atone for sin, there had to be sin.

Quote:Why not? Why can your god not do it without the sacrifice?

Because there would be no need for election without sin. Everyone would be elected, and there would be no need for Christ; thus, eliminating election all together.

Quote:If you don't "willingly" do anything, how could you have made the choice to "accept, God's sovereignty".
The choice was made for you.
The way your god will happily create people just to suffer forever, i wouldn't be so sure you were chosen, if I were you.

That's a possible scenario. But, the fact that I accept God is evidence enough that I'm of God (states this in the Bible).

Quote:God or man A monster is still a monster, immortal or not the way it treats people should not be tolerated.


This is completely relative, again. Would you be a monster for destroying a nest of ants?
Yes, if you created ants to love you and killed them because their parents did not....you would almost an evil monster as you god is....and almost as ignorant.
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12-12-2012, 08:26 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because in order for Christ to be able to atone for sin, there had to be sin.

So in order to save us god had to first make sin, then sacrifice himself to atone for the thing he made, and could have avoided entirely by just not creating it?

(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because there would be no need for election without sin. Everyone would be elected, and there would be no need for Christ; thus, eliminating election all together.

But your god has pre ordained who is elect and who isn't. Something it can still do without sin. But somehow felt the need to make something totally redundant since those people would be going to hell anyway because it had decided that where they would would end up. Without only just a few elect it would also mean that people who are not sinners but not otherwise elect, weren't created just to suffer forever for things they had no choice with. IT would mean your god wasn't unnecessarily cruel.

The idea of sin and accepting Jesus only makes sense if everyone has a choice. without free will they had no function and god just did it for the sake of doing it.

(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's a possible scenario. But, the fact that I accept God is evidence enough that I'm of God (states this in the Bible).

But you don't accept god, that would imply you had a choice, but you don't. everything you do is forced upon you you cant control or change it. You are knit picking, the bits of the bible that suits you because says you are getting into heaven, but you still ignore other parts that other users have brought up, as myths. Why are those bits or even bits that would say you aren't elect or will go to hell any less true?

(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is completely relative, again. Would you be a monster for destroying a nest of ants?
Good point. A difference is I didn't create the ants just to suffer. If I destroy the ant hill they wouldn't suffer in agony with no escape forever.

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14-12-2012, 01:30 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
If you manufactured your own army of androids whose only function was to follow you around, tell you how awesome you are and tell everyone else how awesome you are, what would everyone else think of you? What would others think of your self esteem? What would they think of your own use of your time and resources? How would they feel about your contribution to creating a pleasant existence?

What would you think of yourself? Would you really think yourself awesome because the androids told you so (despite the fact that you programmed them to do so)?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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14-12-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 02:49 PM)Chase200mph Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because in order for Christ to be able to atone for sin, there had to be sin.


Because there would be no need for election without sin. Everyone would be elected, and there would be no need for Christ; thus, eliminating election all together.


That's a possible scenario. But, the fact that I accept God is evidence enough that I'm of God (states this in the Bible).



This is completely relative, again. Would you be a monster for destroying a nest of ants?
Yes, if you created ants to love you and killed them because their parents did not....you would almost an evil monster as you god is....and almost as ignorant.
Answer; I hate my app...LOL!!!!!
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15-12-2012, 09:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
so if you accept evolution then im sure you agree that the adam and eve story is obviously not something that actually happend. just a metaphor right? if this is the case then there is no original sin.. the question is if there is no original sin then whats the point of jesus dying for our sins?
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17-12-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 12:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  This was because of the preservation of the Messianic line.
I can't fathom how you can believe something this utterly irrational. God had to order his adherents to slaughter innocent men and children and take the virgins for themselves in order to preserve the Messianic line? Really?
It was part of keeping the line pure.

Again... God is a God of order. Since sin is in the world, sin shows its attributes in all.

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17-12-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 12:11 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  See that is the puzzling part.

You seem to realise that the bibal (yes, I mean bib-al), was built off older creation myths from the region, and yet your personalised interpretation is correct; not the base works of myth from which it originated, A la Canaan and Sumerian and Babylonian works; and the myths that came out from the bible are wrong too; and the thousands of interpretations that are not yours.
Not even mentioning unrelated creation myths like those of China, Japan, Mongolia or the Dreamtime of of Australian Aboriginals or what ever other example you do so pick.

Every single one of them are wrong, and yet yours is not? How very curious. Very curious indeed; it seems to be a very common trend, almost as if believers go into confirmation bias and cognitive shut-down sub-consciously so that their mind can retain their beliefs.

Ever noticed how every religion has been claimed as the truth by it's partakers?
And that every single one contradicts all the others? It is practically assured that all of them are wrong, at least too some degree. And your personalized beliefs are not exempt.

You do see how in all probability, your beliefs are wrong also?


(Also, why would god torture a donkey is such a way? The change in it's vocal cords and larynx must of been excruciating for the poor beast! Sure It could have come up with a better, less donkey torturing way to communicate!)
No I get this. I understand this. It's not confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance. I'm very much aware of each and every point that you made; however, my personal experience is too great for me to dismiss. So, with this, there are several things that I have to rationalize to help equate to that which I understand is truth.

Based on my overall knowledge and rationale, I should be an atheist. The only thing that keeps me from that is my personal experience.

PS - lol that's something I've never thought about with the donkey before. Interesting thought, though.

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17-12-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2012 02:49 PM)Chase200mph Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because in order for Christ to be able to atone for sin, there had to be sin.


Because there would be no need for election without sin. Everyone would be elected, and there would be no need for Christ; thus, eliminating election all together.


That's a possible scenario. But, the fact that I accept God is evidence enough that I'm of God (states this in the Bible).



This is completely relative, again. Would you be a monster for destroying a nest of ants?
Yes, if you created ants to love you and killed them because their parents did not....you would almost an evil monster as you god is....and almost as ignorant.
You didn't make a point...

I don't believe in OS.

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17-12-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-12-2012 08:26 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  So in order to save us god had to first make sin, then sacrifice himself to atone for the thing he made, and could have avoided entirely by just not creating it?

Yes. But without sin, He would create perfection aka God. He didn't want to create Himself.

Quote:But your god has pre ordained who is elect and who isn't. Something it can still do without sin. But somehow felt the need to make something totally redundant since those people would be going to hell anyway because it had decided that where they would would end up. Without only just a few elect it would also mean that people who are not sinners but not otherwise elect, weren't created just to suffer forever for things they had no choice with. IT would mean your god wasn't unnecessarily cruel.

No. Again, sin creates the need for an election.

Quote:The idea of sin and accepting Jesus only makes sense if everyone has a choice. without free will they had no function and god just did it for the sake of doing it.

No. The accepting of Christ couldn't happen if you weren't elect. Accepting Christ is an outward showing of one's election.

Quote:But you don't accept god, that would imply you had a choice, but you don't. everything you do is forced upon you you cant control or change it. You are knit picking, the bits of the bible that suits you because says you are getting into heaven, but you still ignore other parts that other users have brought up, as myths. Why are those bits or even bits that would say you aren't elect or will go to hell any less true?

Please point out which parts I am knit picking. It's hard to answer that generalized of a question.

Quote:Good point. A difference is I didn't create the ants just to suffer. If I destroy the ant hill they wouldn't suffer in agony with no escape forever.

But, if you did create them, don't you have the final say so as to what happens to them?

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17-12-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(14-12-2012 01:30 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  If you manufactured your own army of androids whose only function was to follow you around, tell you how awesome you are and tell everyone else how awesome you are, what would everyone else think of you? What would others think of your self esteem? What would they think of your own use of your time and resources? How would they feel about your contribution to creating a pleasant existence?

What would you think of yourself? Would you really think yourself awesome because the androids told you so (despite the fact that you programmed them to do so)?
If I was omnipotent and omniscient, then I would be entitled to it.

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