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08-04-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(08-04-2013 11:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-04-2013 02:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Did the authors and editors of the bible believe they were writing truth, or did they believe they were writing stories with "truth" in them that were the stories passed down in their culture?

I think it really depends on the book. Since the Bible is so eclectic, there are some books that are meant to be understood as truth and some as stories with truth.

Quote:Do you think that Saul of Taursus believed Jesus to have actually existed, or was it good enough for him to just be a figure who stories could be told about?

Nothing in Paul's writings suggest that he didn't believe Jesus existed. So yes, I believe he believed in Jesus' existence.

Quote:And (while moral lessons can be laid within fiction), can truth be veiled within untruth?

Absolutely. Parables are an example of this.

"I think it really depends on the book. Since the Bible is so eclectic, there are some books that are meant to be understood as truth and some as stories with truth."

This kind of answer baffles and confuses me. Confused What I mean to say is that how can one discern truth from non-truth and that which is literally true from that which is only metaphorically true? And if everyone reads a different "truth" in any given passage, both cannot be right, but both use the same justification for calling it truth.

If this is truly god's system for revealing himself, it is atrocious.

"Nothing in Paul's writings suggest that he didn't believe Jesus existed. So yes, I believe he believed in Jesus' existence."

I haven't read much of any of Paul's writings, but suffice it say, many a great author has written about a literary character of their creation as if they were real. Tolkein constructed entire family trees.

"Absolutely. Parables are an example of this."

I don't understand how a fiction can be true. I fully comprehend how an author might infuse their morals into it though. But there exists no truth in the story of "The Little Engine That Could" despite teaching kids in a metaphorical way to never give up. That may be a moral lesson from the author, but that neither makes it moral, just, or true.

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08-04-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(08-04-2013 11:07 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-04-2013 07:47 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I don't think evenheathen's question was addressed. Why are "only a few chosen", if this god claims a "love" for all humans?

He has a love for all humans, but He only chose a few because of the plan that was set up before a "before". His plan has always existed, like God; therefore, sin has to affect people in order for the Christ's purpose to be fulfilled.

Why He set it up like this, I don't know.

But here's the thing. Say there IS "a god who chooses only a few . . . and the person has no say in it, . . . and will eventually be forced to spend an eternity in agony just for being born", . . . could you worship such a being, . . . and if so, could you REALLY have a valid "center of apathy and/or concern and care" for people? It would see that this god doesn't care about "people in suffering agony for eternity", thus would be quite the monster, right?

I know there are many 5 Point Calvinists, . . . . and I really have to wonder how they can still be "in love" with such an entity as this. I couldn't condone a loved one's eternal suffering even if I WERE "chosen".
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08-04-2013, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 12:52 PM by Jeffasaurus.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(08-04-2013 11:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) I believe infants, babies, and children that die are chosen for salvation... same with the mentally handicapped. I based this belief solely on God's grace and because the Bible said that you will be judged based on your deeds. Since these people have no understanding of deeds or morality aka what is a sin, I believe that there is nothing for them to be judged on; therefore, they are chosen for salvation.
(07-04-2013 06:00 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  So, if Radeesh Gupta is mentally retarded and dies, he gets to go to Heaven and enjoy eternal happiness with no sadness whatsoever. However, his mom, who cared for him his whole life, is Hindu and is now enjoying the Beelzebub barbecue. I'm pretty sure that he would miss her horribly and be completely miserable not having her with him, thus negating the whole Heaven-is-awesome-and-totally-the-place-to-hang-out-in-the-afterlife vibe that they advertise.
(08-04-2013 11:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  2) Humans that existed before God imparted His image upon us simply lived and died. Much like any other animal. They had no knowledge of good and evil because the image of God let us understand this. They simply died and went into nonexistence.

3) I don't know the exact time when God imparted His image on humanity. I do believe it was before written history.
So, at some point in history there was the first person allowed into Heaven who arrived alone with no parents or grandparents to spend eternity with. Where's the eternal bliss?

I was raised as a Christian and was always told that when you get to Heaven you'll get to see all of your relatives and loved ones again and be happy forever. But that doesn't make sense. So I arrive in Heaven and I see relatives and ask, "Hey. Where's Uncle Joe?"
"Oh, your Uncle Joe was a buddhist and is burning in Hell."
"Oh, shit. Damn you Uncle Joe. Now I'm going to be sad in Heaven because you're not here."

It's contradictory.

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08-04-2013, 01:11 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 11:43 PM by kim.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
Kingsy Wrote:1) I believe infants, babies, and children that die are chosen for salvation... same with the mentally handicapped. I based this belief solely on God's grace and because the Bible said that you will be judged based on your deeds. Since these people have no understanding of deeds or morality aka what is a sin, I believe that there is nothing for them to be judged on; therefore, they are chosen for salvation.

2) Humans that existed before God imparted His image upon us simply lived and died. Much like any other animal. They had no knowledge of good and evil because the image of God let us understand this. They simply died and went into nonexistence.

3) I don't know the exact time when God imparted His image on humanity. I do believe it was before written history.

Seems all lovely pie in the sky, as one is bound to get during the analysis of love. But what if love is blind and one doesn't see what might really be important to see? What if one misses the point or many points because love or the notion of love, is so enthralling?
***

I find #2 & 3 quite a nice notion; that humans who existed before God imparted his image upon humanity, possibly before written history. By image I assume you mean a kind of thought imagery or the notion of this god concept, because uh... well...
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my laws.

Would not engraving words (thought imagery) into a book and holding that book as sacred... be somewhat contrary to that particular bit? Not to mention the rest of the worshiped words written in that worshiped book, or worshiped words written about anything or anyone worshiped in that book.

***
It seems the humans who existed before this particular God may have known what they were doing. Essentially, until one is indoctrinated, we are those humans.

I am. I am prior to god. No god has "imparted his image" upon me, I simply live and die. Much like any other animal. I have a relative knowledge of good and evil but, I guarantee no image of any god let me understand this. I will simply die and go into nonexistence.

Humans could accomplish much if they weren't obliged to waste precious, fleeting moments of life by stressing about that heaven and hell bullshit. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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08-04-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
23 hundred posts are just a few too many for me to scroll through, so I apologize if this has been asked before. What is a theist's view on the abortion of "artificial"/unnatural life? I'm asking any pro-lifers, specifically.
A woman donates her egg, a man donates his sperm; neither of them ever meet. The 2 are put together by scientists in a lab, and in your hand, theist, is a test tube with the beginnings of a human life in it that never had anything to do with a man & woman having marital sex. Do you hold it reverently, or do you cast it to the floor to shatter it?
Serious question. I'm curious!

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08-04-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(08-04-2013 11:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... I based this belief solely on God's grace and because the Bible said that you will be judged based on your deeds. ...

This statement seems to conflict with:

(26-03-2013 01:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If you aren't elect, you can't choose God. You can only have faith in God if God gives you that faith.

By these two standards for acceptance into the pearly gates:

1) One can be a total self-serving asshole, but since they're "elect" and have God-given faith they are allowed into Heaven.

2) An atheist who is kind, altruistic, charitable, and benevolent is also invited in based upon their exceptional deeds.

???????

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08-04-2013, 11:08 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 11:32 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
And still no respsonse to GirlyMan, goddam dude, don't be as useless and fecklesss as Ego®.

Bah ... bitch.Tongue

#sigh
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08-04-2013, 11:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013 12:31 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-04-2013 08:36 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  All I am thinking is how wonderful if we could make use of the hell right now. Pour in water, install the turbines and we would get unlimited electricity ! Build a forge and we would get very cheap iron and steel !

Why couldn't we make use of the hell right now? What a waste for the charcoal.

Girly's always got meat ready to cook, comrade. Big Grin ... The fuck? When did Girly become friends with a commie bastard, that just ain't right. ... My God, what have we done? ... How did we get here? ... My God, what have we done? ... I like the commie fucker, is that wrong?



Oh my dear security clearance fuck. ...

#sigh
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08-04-2013, 11:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-04-2013 08:36 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(06-04-2013 07:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  If you sin God damns you.
God damns you because you sin.

Sin has to exist so that Christ can save you from God damning you.

God doesn't care how much of a sinner you are, if he chooses to save you, that's it. But he saves you through the agency of Christ who saves you from God damning you.

In all this God is a just and merciful God and being damned is exactly what anyone deserves.

Because merely existing is sufficient reason for you to be condemned to eternal torment.

God loves you. He hates frying you. Weeps as he prepares the charcoal, no doubt.

... KC you still not got a problem with this deity of yours ?

All I am thinking is how wonderful if we could make use of the hell right now. Pour in water, install the turbines and we would get unlimited electricity ! Build a forge and we would get very cheap iron and steel !

Why couldn't we make use of the hell right now? What a waste for the charcoal.

Yep, that definitely made my night/morning. Idea of the year right there.Laughat

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11-04-2013, 11:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(08-04-2013 11:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-04-2013 11:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I think it really depends on the book. Since the Bible is so eclectic, there are some books that are meant to be understood as truth and some as stories with truth.


Nothing in Paul's writings suggest that he didn't believe Jesus existed. So yes, I believe he believed in Jesus' existence.


Absolutely. Parables are an example of this.

"I think it really depends on the book. Since the Bible is so eclectic, there are some books that are meant to be understood as truth and some as stories with truth."

This kind of answer baffles and confuses me. Confused What I mean to say is that how can one discern truth from non-truth and that which is literally true from that which is only metaphorically true? And if everyone reads a different "truth" in any given passage, both cannot be right, but both use the same justification for calling it truth.

If this is truly god's system for revealing himself, it is atrocious.

"Nothing in Paul's writings suggest that he didn't believe Jesus existed. So yes, I believe he believed in Jesus' existence."

I haven't read much of any of Paul's writings, but suffice it say, many a great author has written about a literary character of their creation as if they were real. Tolkein constructed entire family trees.

"Absolutely. Parables are an example of this."

I don't understand how a fiction can be true. I fully comprehend how an author might infuse their morals into it though. But there exists no truth in the story of "The Little Engine That Could" despite teaching kids in a metaphorical way to never give up. That may be a moral lesson from the author, but that neither makes it moral, just, or true.

Fiction isn't ever literally true. The lessons that are taught are true.

I think the confusion lies with people thinking that truth = 100% literal accuracy

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