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12-04-2013, 09:10 AM
Ask a Theist!
(11-04-2013 07:42 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 06:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  And this is the problem with Heaven, theists can't even come up with an idea that upon any examination doesn't sound more like hell than eternal paradise.

Very true. Let's say there are one billion things to do in Heaven. After you've done them all a million times it would get quite boring and mundane. But wait! You're just getting started; that's not even .0000000001% of eternity. Weeping Laughat

And another question occurs to me:

If everyone "chosen" is simply headed to a place where they won't remember a single thing that happened here...what the hell is the point of this place anyway? Why not just create heaven and populate it? Job done!

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12-04-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-04-2013 11:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fiction isn't ever literally true. The lessons that are taught are true.

I think the confusion lies with people thinking that truth = 100% literal accuracy

I don't understand how truth would be anything other than factually correct to such a degree that it would be deemed highly unlikely to be anything other than 100% correct.

We must be using different variations of "truth." As I cannot see an inaccurate story or myth as being truth. It could have some facts in it, like a person that did indeed exist, but that no more makes Abraham Lincoln a vampire hunter than me the queen of England.

Absolute truth is not something that is required from God. He isn't obligated to give us absolute truth. He only gives us what He feels is necessary to coincide with the gift of faith.

He reveals Himself to us in a variety of ways... again, disregarding absolute truth.

While all of the facts revealed to us may not be absolute 100% truth and/or literally inerrant, the message that He wants us to know about a situation or about Himself is there. That's what I'm talking about, and that's what the Bible is filled with.

Teachings.
Lessons.
Revelations.
Parables.

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12-04-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-04-2013 09:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't understand how truth would be anything other than factually correct to such a degree that it would be deemed highly unlikely to be anything other than 100% correct.

We must be using different variations of "truth." As I cannot see an inaccurate story or myth as being truth. It could have some facts in it, like a person that did indeed exist, but that no more makes Abraham Lincoln a vampire hunter than me the queen of England.

Absolute truth is not something that is required from God. He isn't obligated to give us absolute truth. He only gives us what He feels is necessary to coincide with the gift of faith.

He reveals Himself to us in a variety of ways... again, disregarding absolute truth.

While all of the facts revealed to us may not be absolute 100% truth and/or literally inerrant, the message that He wants us to know about a situation or about Himself is there. That's what I'm talking about, and that's what the Bible is filled with.

Teachings.
Lessons.
Revelations.
Parables.

But if God's plan for revelation is the same as that of any fiction writer, how can one distinguish between the two?

What I mean is that anyone could write a series of stories and make books that have the same types of impacts on people, and they are nothing more than straight-up made-up stories. What then could even begin to distinguish those from the bible?

And as for revelation, even this is not unique to religion or the bible. Someone may come to a special revelation about any given story. Scientology is based off of just that.

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12-04-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-04-2013 11:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fiction isn't ever literally true. The lessons that are taught are true.

I think the confusion lies with people thinking that truth = 100% literal accuracy

It really seems like cherry-picking at this point. Anyway I know you've probably answered this somewhere in this monster of a thread but your a calvinist and believe in that salvation is preordained correct? If it doesn't matter one way or another what you do either your names on the list or it isn't then why spend your brief time on this planet doing what you believe you'll be doing for all eternity? Would this belief (rather than the belief that this is the only time you get) allow you to act with no morals since you already have your get out of jail free card?

Nope. I cannot act outside of what God has pre-planned.

I act the way I act and talk the way I talk and eat the way I eat - everything - has been planned by God.

I can't act outside of that plan.

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12-04-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-04-2013 10:03 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It really seems like cherry-picking at this point. Anyway I know you've probably answered this somewhere in this monster of a thread but your a calvinist and believe in that salvation is preordained correct? If it doesn't matter one way or another what you do either your names on the list or it isn't then why spend your brief time on this planet doing what you believe you'll be doing for all eternity? Would this belief (rather than the belief that this is the only time you get) allow you to act with no morals since you already have your get out of jail free card?

Nope. I cannot act outside of what God has pre-planned.

I act the way I act and talk the way I talk and eat the way I eat - everything - has been planned by God.

I can't act outside of that plan.

So then you reject the concept of free will?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 10:05 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-04-2013 06:41 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 11:52 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't believe in an earthly recollection once we're in heaven. Any memories of earth will usher in pain. The Bible said that there will be no pain in heaven.
Wow, talk about a suckfest.

I am me because of every experience that I have had.
Imagine the frustration of having amnesia: you can't remember your wife, children, or friends. You have no idea what you did yesterday. However, you still possess a variety of basic knowledge: language, functionality, etc. This would be worse.
It actually sounds quite hellish to think of a time in which one could have no idea who they are, where they are, why they are there, or how they got there. They would literally never be themselves again. It seems rather pointless if you can't even be you, and are instead a blank, thoughtless flesh spirit bag.

You wouldn't even know that your supposed to be happy there, wherever it is.

Apparently, we are changed and we will derive pleasure from praising God for all eternity.

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12-04-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-04-2013 11:46 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 01:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I should have said, "according to the Christian doctrine".
In that case, my question is: Why do you believe that this is true?

Because not one person has ever not broken some moral law... intentional or not.

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12-04-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-04-2013 07:11 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 03:17 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It is accepted in Christian doctrine that God is sovereign and autonomous. He isn't held to any standard but His own... and no one knows this standard except for God.

God is perfect when He's held against His own standard; however, according to human standards, that's not always the way it seems.

Since God is perfect (as accepted by doctrine) and humans are imperfect, human standards cannot judge God.

But see, that starts to make no sense, . . . and begins to sound like a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing. We can debate whether or not it was immoral [and, of course it was] to personally cause the death of children and babies in flood or brimstone, . . . or ordering Hebrews to do it with the sword.

But what about "perfect knowledge"? The claim of omniscience? There are places in the Old Testament that show a god who either didn't know what was happening on earth, or was "talked out of an action" by a man's plea.

So, is that the way it is? The "do as I say, not as I do" thing, . . . . . . and the only difference is that this "god" merely has more power than us?

No... it's a matter of He does as He wants and controls us as He wants.

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12-04-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-04-2013 09:10 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(11-04-2013 07:42 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Very true. Let's say there are one billion things to do in Heaven. After you've done them all a million times it would get quite boring and mundane. But wait! You're just getting started; that's not even .0000000001% of eternity. Weeping Laughat

And another question occurs to me:

If everyone "chosen" is simply headed to a place where they won't remember a single thing that happened here...what the hell is the point of this place anyway? Why not just create heaven and populate it? Job done!

Don't know. That's a question that I can't answer.

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12-04-2013, 10:09 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-04-2013 09:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 09:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Absolute truth is not something that is required from God. He isn't obligated to give us absolute truth. He only gives us what He feels is necessary to coincide with the gift of faith.

He reveals Himself to us in a variety of ways... again, disregarding absolute truth.

While all of the facts revealed to us may not be absolute 100% truth and/or literally inerrant, the message that He wants us to know about a situation or about Himself is there. That's what I'm talking about, and that's what the Bible is filled with.

Teachings.
Lessons.
Revelations.
Parables.

But if God's plan for revelation is the same as that of any fiction writer, how can one distinguish between the two?

What I mean is that anyone could write a series of stories and make books that have the same types of impacts on people, and they are nothing more than straight-up made-up stories. What then could even begin to distinguish those from the bible?

And as for revelation, even this is not unique to religion or the bible. Someone may come to a special revelation about any given story. Scientology is based off of just that.

Yes, I know... and I feel I've beaten this to death.

I understand that other religions are much like Christianity... their holy books and bylaws are the same.

The reason I believe the way I do is based on faith. That's the only way that you can accept the Bible... is through pure faith.

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