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24-12-2013, 04:39 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 09:25 AM by fredlc.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
Ok. Here is a question I threw around a few times and never got a proper answer to:

As you cite the bible as proper bases for your believes, I can safely assume you are a. Christian. So, you are fertile ground Thor me to harvest answers for doctrinaire difficulties regarding Christianity. Well, my favorite is a twist of the infamous "problem of evil", and here it goes:

Every time the problem of doing evil in the world is presented, the core response is based on free will; evil can happen because the devil can trick us into evil choices, or we can choose badly on our own, but the freedom to choose is always the underlying value. It's always said that god won't ever change this, because he values our free will too much to take it away from us. The assumption is that evil is a small price to pay for such valued caractheristic.

My problem with this is that the very act of choosing, allegedly badly, by Eve, is the basis of the original sin, of the alleged curse that plagues mankind.

So, either free will is a bad thing condemned by god, or it isn't. But I'd like to circumvent obvious answers about god being mysterious, or having laid different rules for Adam and Eve, with a practical proposition:

Doesn't this doctrine make the concept of heaven an internally inconsistent proposition?

I mean, the reason why heaven is superior to earth is, allegedly, because knowledge of god permits people to live perfect life's, free of any of the problems that plague this world. This means that God IS, according to the doctrine, either:

1 - capable of creating a paradise for mankind that still allows for free will;

2 - incapable of doing so, in witch case, heaven has no free will. However, as this is heaven, the place which reaching is one of the core goals of Christianity (albeit a derivative goal), this has to be considered the superior stance, the prize for good Christians.

And, with response "1", free will cannot be an excuse as to why there is evil in the world, as it's no longer an unavoidable consequence of freedom.

With response "2", heaven becomes pointless, because if free will is a necessary value for humanity, than humans will be diminished in heaven, and Christians are struggling for a condition that is inferior to that we already have, for after all, "evil is a small price for free will".

Ok, I'd like to see this issue addressed. Hope I made it clear enough.

Regards Smile.
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24-12-2013, 04:51 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 04:39 AM)fredlc Wrote:  Ok, I'd like to see this issue addressed. Hope I made it clear enough.
As a Calvinist, kingschosen doesn't believe that humans have free will.

He also doesn't believe that the account of Adam and Eve should be taken literally; he thinks that it's an allegorical story.

Anything I didn't cover, Jeremy? Consider

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24-12-2013, 05:06 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Considering the Adam and Eve tale symbolic didn't affect my proposition, but denying free will IS a deal breaker...

Hehehe... That ought to render my questions meaningless. I suppose I underestimated the differences between branches of Christianity (my question was framed for Catholics) but dude; it was almost 250 pages to read back, so cut me some slack Big Grin

Regards Smile.
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24-12-2013, 05:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 05:06 AM)fredlc Wrote:  Considering the Adam and Eve tale symbolic didn't affect my proposition, but denying free will IS a deal breaker...

Hehehe... That ought to render my questions meaningless. I suppose I underestimated the differences between branches of Christianity (my question was framed for Catholics) but dude; it was almost 250 pages to read back, so cut me some slack Big Grin
Don't worry, nobody is accusing you of anything; I simply wanted to save KC the trouble of responding to your post. Tongue

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24-12-2013, 07:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 05:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 05:06 AM)fredlc Wrote:  Considering the Adam and Eve tale symbolic didn't affect my proposition, but denying free will IS a deal breaker...

Hehehe... That ought to render my questions meaningless. I suppose I underestimated the differences between branches of Christianity (my question was framed for Catholics) but dude; it was almost 250 pages to read back, so cut me some slack Big Grin
Don't worry, nobody is accusing you of anything; I simply wanted to save KC the trouble of responding to your post. Tongue

Why? Make the theist work for a living. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-12-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(23-12-2013 04:10 PM)bemore Wrote:  I am sure there are people under those circumstances right now who hold just as much belief in god. What about those people?

I'm not sure what you're asking, Chris. What about them? God controls all... not just the lives of His elect.

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24-12-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 04:51 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(24-12-2013 04:39 AM)fredlc Wrote:  Ok, I'd like to see this issue addressed. Hope I made it clear enough.
As a Calvinist, kingschosen doesn't believe that humans have free will.

He also doesn't believe that the account of Adam and Eve should be taken literally; he thinks that it's an allegorical story.

Anything I didn't cover, Jeremy? Consider

Nope. You know me pretty well.

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24-12-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 05:06 AM)fredlc Wrote:  Considering the Adam and Eve tale symbolic didn't affect my proposition, but denying free will IS a deal breaker...

Hehehe... That ought to render my questions meaningless. I suppose I underestimated the differences between branches of Christianity (my question was framed for Catholics) but dude; it was almost 250 pages to read back, so cut me some slack Big Grin

Regards Smile.

Yeah, no worries man.

But, when you are engaging in theists, make sure to understand the core beliefs of the denomination which they claim.

If you click my name, I've listed my core beliefs in my profile. That free will question is completely meaningless to any Calvinistic denomination of Christianity. It's pretty exclusive, though. Not many of religions or Christian denominations deny free will.

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24-12-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Well here's one: do you believe your god to be prejudiced?

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24-12-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2013 09:21 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's pretty exclusive, though. Not many of religions or Christian denominations deny free will.

No, only the really fucking retarded ones. Dodgy

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