Ask a Theist!
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31-12-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 08:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What you've said is correct. It's a dishonest tactic used by theist, but it's also a dishonest tactic for an atheist to ask a theist to prove that God exists. God cannot be proved or disproved because His existence isn't physical but metaphysical. In such, the metaphysical cannot be proved with empirical evidence.

That's all well and good, but why do theists, including you, continually try to use reason to justify their beliefs?

The amount of ink and electrons used in empty theological 'justification' is appalling.
If the theists will just stop that nonsense and honestly admit to belief without evidence, then there is no real basis for argument.

Because reason and empirical evidence are part of what I consider valid evidence. That being said, I also consider my personal experiences to be valid evidence. Since there is no empirical evidence to the contrary, both forms of evidence can coincide.

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31-12-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:17 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Not to generate any sort of argument between you and me, KC, but I always thought the one making the extraordinary claim was the one with the burden of proof. The atheist is making no extraordinary claim.
You are.


so....................

well............Blink


Isn't that how that goes? The one making the extraordinary claim has the burden of proof?





just sayin
Cool

Again, I believe it depends on the evidence that's allowed and who's doing the asking.

To a theist, if an atheist says that God doesn't exist and asks the theist to prove His existence, then according to the theist's evidence that's an extraordinary claim and the atheist has the burden of proof because he's doing the asking as well.

And vice versa.

I don't believe that anyone objectively has the burden of proof, as it depends on the conversation and the context of the claims and what is considered evidence.

Then you misunderstand the burden of proof. Whichever one makes a definite claim has the burden of proof.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  That's all well and good, but why do theists, including you, continually try to use reason to justify their beliefs?

The amount of ink and electrons used in empty theological 'justification' is appalling.
If the theists will just stop that nonsense and honestly admit to belief without evidence, then there is no real basis for argument.

Because reason and empirical evidence are part of what I consider valid evidence. That being said, I also consider my personal experiences to be valid evidence. Since there is no empirical evidence to the contrary, both forms of evidence can coincide.

Your thoughts and feelings are not evidence regardless of how you feel about that or how many times you try to claim it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  The amount of ink and electrons used in empty theological 'justification' is appalling.
If the theists will just stop that nonsense and honestly admit to belief without evidence, then there is no real basis for argument.
Absolutely! Excellent.Thumbsup

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31-12-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:55 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  @kingschosen
Hmm. Most of the time I debate in public forums and do consider the audience. I don't usually expect to change the theist's mind, but I hope that the audience is making judgements about the validity of the arguments on each side.

I don't usually discuss God's existence in real life... even when I was a Christian. If someone brought it up, I'd defend my beliefs.

If I was debating one on one, with no audience, I suppose I'd ask the theist to consider where his beliefs came from in the first place. I'd him to define his God and ask him to consider exactly why he does believe what he believes about this God.

Yeah, it's a whole different debate when you change to a one-on-one encounter. But it seems that you are handling group debates the way you should. Not everyone's personal evidence can be considered evidence because it varies; therefore, that isn't valid evidence and only things that can be tested and retested are considered evidence.

The downside is that the theist has no real leg to stand on in this type of debate because the belief in God isn't rooted in empirical evidence. So you're going to get a lot of red herrings and strawmen from theists reaching to try and defend their beliefs when their ability to defend is invalid. I'm not going to say it's unfair, but it just seems like a loaded debate.

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31-12-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because reason and empirical evidence are part of what I consider valid evidence. That being said, I also consider my personal experiences to be valid evidence. Since there is no empirical evidence to the contrary, both forms of evidence can coincide.

Your thoughts and feelings are not evidence regardless of how you feel about that or how many times you try to claim it.

How many times have we been through this?

To me they are. To you or anyone else they aren't.

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31-12-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your thoughts and feelings are not evidence regardless of how you feel about that or how many times you try to claim it.

How many times have we been through this?

To me they are. To you or anyone else they aren't.

Then stop misusing the word 'evidence'. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:01 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:55 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  @kingschosen
Hmm. Most of the time I debate in public forums and do consider the audience. I don't usually expect to change the theist's mind, but I hope that the audience is making judgements about the validity of the arguments on each side.

I don't usually discuss God's existence in real life... even when I was a Christian. If someone brought it up, I'd defend my beliefs.

If I was debating one on one, with no audience, I suppose I'd ask the theist to consider where his beliefs came from in the first place. I'd him to define his God and ask him to consider exactly why he does believe what he believes about this God.

Yeah, it's a whole different debate when you change to a one-on-one encounter. But it seems that you are handling group debates the way you should. Not everyone's personal evidence can be considered evidence because it varies; therefore, that isn't valid evidence and only things that can be tested and retested are considered evidence.

The downside is that the theist has no real leg to stand on in this type of debate because the belief in God isn't rooted in empirical evidence. So you're going to get a lot of red herrings and strawmen from theists reaching to try and defend their beliefs when their ability to defend is invalid. I'm not going to say it's unfair, but it just seems like a loaded debate.

There are Christians I respect. I've read some about Francis Collins, Ken Miller, Karl Giberson and Hugh Ross. Karl Giberson says that as far as he is concerned, belief in God is the status quo, and the onus is on others to convince him God doesn't exist. I don't happen to believe him, but I respect his point of view.

I still rather like Philip Yancey and Frederick Buechner, too.
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31-12-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:12 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  There are Christians I respect. I've read some about Francis Collins, Ken Miller, Karl Giberson and Hugh Ross. Karl Giberson says that as far as he is concerned, belief in God is the status quo, and the onus is on others to convince him God doesn't exist. I don't happen to believe him, but I respect his point of view.

I still rather like Philip Yancey and Frederick Buechner, too.

Yeah, I'm a big Francis Collins fan.

I also like Robert Bakker and Allister McGrath.

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31-12-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then stop misusing the word 'evidence'. Drinking Beverage

Its definition is subjective to the person. Drinking Beverage

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