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31-12-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your thoughts and feelings are not evidence regardless of how you feel about that or how many times you try to claim it.

How many times have we been through this?

To me they are. To you or anyone else they aren't.

KC, I'm curious:

You have such confidence in your ability to judge the veracity of your own "personal experience". Yet, if you look around at so many other theists in this world, of so many other religions, most, if not all, also claim that their "personal experience" is equally valid (and equally in contradiction to so many others). Why does this fact not indicate to you that, perhaps, "personal experience" (yes, even your own) may not be as reliable as you seem to make it out to be? Why do you feel so strongly about your own personal experience, and simultaneously feel that so many other people's personal experiences (say, Muslims) are totally unreliable? This almost seems arrogant.

On another subject: What the heck is "metaphysical"? What things fall into the realm of metaphysical? Can you clearly define it for us? If yes, how are you even able to clearly define it?

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31-12-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:17 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  KC, I'm curious:

You have such confidence in your ability to judge the veracity of your own "personal experience". Yet, if you look around at so many other theists in this world, of so many other religions, most, if not all, also claim that their "personal experience" is equally valid (and equally in contradiction to so many others). Why does this fact not indicate to you that, perhaps, "personal experience" (yes, even your own) may not be as reliable as you seem to make it out to be? Why do you feel so strongly about your own personal experience, and simultaneously feel that so many other people's personal experiences (say, Muslims) are totally unreliable? This almost seems arrogant.

Because I can't judge the voracity of their claims. I only know mine and how they affected me. So, I can't say that they're right or wrong. Not my place. They believe the way they do because of something; just like I do.

I could be wrong and they could be right. I'm not gnostic in my beliefs; however, I strongly believe that my faith is correct. There are hundreds of answers theologically as to why people who don't believe as I do have these type of experiences like me.

Regardless though, it's not meant to be arrogant; if anything, it's meant to be non-confrontational. I'm not saying that they are incorrect, but I can see how if passively comes off that way.

Quote:On another subject: What the heck is "metaphysical"? What things fall into the realm of metaphysical? Can you clearly define it for us? If yes, how are you even able to clearly define it?

Anything that doesn't exist in the physical world thus cannot be proved/disproved with empirical evidence. Feelings. Thoughts. Visions. Damascus Road Experiences. Faith.

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31-12-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 11:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then stop misusing the word 'evidence'. Drinking Beverage

Its definition is subjective to the person. Drinking Beverage

No, it isn't. Those things are your reasons, but they do not qualify as evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2013, 11:30 AM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2013 11:43 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 11:12 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  There are Christians I respect. I've read some about Francis Collins, Ken Miller, Karl Giberson and Hugh Ross. Karl Giberson says that as far as he is concerned, belief in God is the status quo, and the onus is on others to convince him God doesn't exist. I don't happen to believe him, but I respect his point of view.

I still rather like Philip Yancey and Frederick Buechner, too.

Yeah, I'm a big Francis Collins fan.

I also like Robert Bakker and Allister McGrath.

I don't know much about Robert Bakker, except that he is a paleontologist and an ecumenical pastor. I'll have to read more about him. I've listened to Allistar McGrath a few times... but I wasn't impressed. Allistar believes that Christians aren't all bad, and points out the good that religions can do. He makes no arguments for God's existence, but rather just assumes God does exist. In the debate I saw between him and Christopher Hitchens, I came away thinking that McGrath admitted he doesn't have or need any proof of God's existence. Apparently, he just likes Christianity for it's good points, and can't even explain why it is better or more desirable than any other religion.
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31-12-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:24 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because I can't judge the voracity of their claims. I only know mine and how they affected me. So, I can't say that they're right or wrong. Not my place. They believe the way they do because of something; just like I do.

I could be wrong and they could be right. I'm not gnostic in my beliefs; however, I strongly believe that my faith is correct. There are hundreds of answers theologically as to why people who don't believe as I do have these type of experiences like me.

Regardless though, it's not meant to be arrogant; if anything, it's meant to be non-confrontational. I'm not saying that they are incorrect, but I can see how if passively comes off that way.

Perhaps I was rash to assume arrogance. Still, you're otherwise a seemingly clever and wise person. It surprises me you put such stock in beliefs that are based on one of the least reliable methods of acquiring knowledge a human has. But, I've been there myself, so I think I understand.

(31-12-2013 11:24 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Anything that doesn't exist in the physical world thus cannot be proved/disproved with empirical evidence. Feelings. Thoughts. Visions. Damascus Road Experiences. Faith.

You do realize there may come a day in the future when thoughts and feelings may no longer be looked upon as metaphysical. I suspect there are already numerous scientists who do not consider them as such. Emergent sensations or perceptions perhaps? But not metaphysical.

Metaphysical sounds like a copout to me, man. Hand wavy. Your Jedi Mind Tricks won't work on me!

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31-12-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:30 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  He makes no arguments for God's existence, but rather just assumes God exists. In the debate I saw between he and Christopher Hitchens, I came away thinking that McGrath admitted he doesn't have or need any proof of God's existence. Apparently, he just likes Christianity for it's good points, and can't even explain why it is better or more desirable than any other religion.

To me, it's kind of funny about people who just inexplicably decide that a particular religion is better or more desirable than another. It's as if they do not realize that what they are actually saying is: "Well, I like these guys because they don't murder nearly as much as any of those other guys. Thumbsup "

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31-12-2013, 11:44 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Again, I believe it depends on the evidence that's allowed and who's doing the asking.

To a theist, if an atheist says that God doesn't exist and asks the theist to prove His existence, then according to the theist's evidence that's an extraordinary claim and the atheist has the burden of proof because he's doing the asking as well.

And vice versa.

I don't believe that anyone objectively has the burden of proof, as it depends on the conversation and the context of the claims and what is considered evidence.

Then you misunderstand the burden of proof. Whichever one makes a definite claim has the burden of proof.

In all honesty (not trying to be an ass) I've always thought the one making Extraordinary claim has the proof problem. The whole point is the extraordinary part....no????
If that isn't the case... Then I am misinformed....seriously so

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31-12-2013, 11:58 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Again, I believe it depends on the evidence that's allowed and who's doing the asking.

To a theist, if an atheist says that God doesn't exist and asks the theist to prove His existence, then according to the theist's evidence that's an extraordinary claim and the atheist has the burden of proof because he's doing the asking as well.
And vice versa.

I don't believe that anyone objectively has the burden of proof, as it depends on the conversation and the context of the claims and what is considered evidence.

Then you misunderstand the burden of proof. Whichever one makes a definite claim has the burden of proof.

Yea, that's just whack, Kingsy.

The notion that a thing does not exist requires no proof. Lack of evidence is proof enough.
If the notion that said thing might indeed exist, even though there is no evidence then, the person with the notion (that this thing might exist) must be called upon to provide evidence to prove this thing exists.

Has nothing to do with belief or god or popcorn in the Alps. Drinking Beverage

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31-12-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:44 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then you misunderstand the burden of proof. Whichever one makes a definite claim has the burden of proof.

In all honesty (not trying to be an ass) I've always thought the one making Extraordinary claim has the proof problem. The whole point is the extraordinary part....no????
If that isn't the case... Then I am misinformed....seriously so

No, it has nothing to do with the content of the claim. You make a claim, any claim, you have the burden of proof.

The more extraordinary the claim, the heavier that burden becomes.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:58 AM)kim Wrote:  If the notion that said thing might indeed exist, even though there is no evidence then, the person with the notion (that this thing might exist) must be called upon to provide evidence to prove this thing exists.

I don't need evidence per se, just a decent reason. E.g. with discovery of Neptune, orbit of Uranus was perturbed, people thought there could be another planet out there. Funny old thing, it was another planet. But it coulda been a space-ape or a giant panda. There was no real *evidence* for another planet - they had no guarantee that then-current gravitational theory was correct for example - but there was strong reason to suspect the damn thing was out there. Even if they hadn't detected it (say it was covered with black dust making it not-reflective) they coulda made some useful predictions under the *assumption* that it existed and checked those.

But you ask for even a decent reason to suspect God of existing and you get back a load of babble about random shit... like morals and wishy-washy feely stuff and yuck about sin... nothing particularly illuminating about what you can use a God for...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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